[advocacy-discuss] Is opensolaris 100% opensource?

[Laurent Blume]

Shawn Walker a écrit :
> No, those really are necessary for a fully functional basic system (IMO).
> 
> It was my understanding that the disassembler is needed for debugging
> tools and so on.

Okay, I see. In my view, a disassembler was no more part of an OS than a
PDF reader, but from Jason's explanation, I take it's buried down much
more deeply in the code, so it just can't be removed.

> See that's the irony. If Sun does it all, they aren't "working with
> the community", or they "don't really understand open source."

No, you're mistaking me. I'm not talking about what *others* say. I'm
talking about what *Sun* says.
Sun said, repeatedly, that they were open-sourcing their OS. Now, after
more than 3 years, it's still not completely done. So of course, they're
getting criticism for not doing what they said they would (I *know*
there are reasons, and that they're quite good ones, but those were not
often part of the marketing campaign).

Don't forget that we, on this list, are hearing the clearer possible
message about what is going on. Even last week, I met Sun employees that
only had a very faint idea of what OpenSolaris is. So please accept that
the message sent to the World outside here is not always unambiguous.
And that, even if the intentions behind are perfectly pure.

> Likewise, if they don't do it, they get the criticism you are bringing up.
> 
> The other problem is that, legally, certain parts of the system need
> to be ideally implemented by someone outside of Sun who hasn't been
> potentially exposed to third-party code.

It's the first time I hear of this, and it makes sense, where is it written?

> I don't pretend to know or understand all the various reasons, but no
> matter what Sun does here, someone is going to criticize them.

I don't understand either, and I would like to.

> No, it's more like:
> 
> "Here's almost all the source code to the other item that we spent
> millions of hours and dollars developing. There's so much here, and we
> really hope you like what we've done. We regret that a very small
> portion is not available due to legal agreements or other
> restrictions. We hope you understand."

I'm not impressed about the millions part. Many companies spend millions
of hours and dollars in projects totally worthless in my view, so that
kind of subjective reference doesn't help in advocacy. It does not convince.

For me, you, this list, Solaris is something valuable. For many others
it's simply not. In the end, don't forget it's only a bunch of flipped
electrons on a ferromagnetic surface, or little holes in an aluminum
film sandwiched in plastic, and you can't eat it if you're hungry.

The legal agreements I agree with, and they are rather well described in
the FAQ, so now, it makes me wonder why they're don't seem to be part of
those FOSS talks. Weird.

> Sun doesn't need those closed parts -- the community does.
> 
> It isn't very fair to have taken everything Sun gave and then expect
> more. Sun has given more than any other company in the open source
> world.

I know, I know. I've said that often enough. *I* don't need to be
convinced.

> I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Those that
> actually *care* about what happens will get involved.

Aren't they already? I'm really under the impression that many
contributors were already involved with Solaris, and that OpenSolaris
didn't bring much change in that.

> Just as the
> GNU/Linux community had to depend on closed components for quite some
> time, they eventually were able to provide free replacements.
> 
> I don't see much difference here.

The way it works. From the ground up with Linux, top down with Solaris.
>From a student in Finland with Linux, and a (okay, you like those
references :-) multi-billion dollar company for Solaris.

People sympathize more easily with a student story than with a
multi-billion dollar company.

> Sun has given the community a tremendous gift at an almost
> unesttimatable cost. Belittling that gift with faint praise or unfair
> criticism is not constructive.

But that criticism seems fair to me and others. Do you believe we're
dishonest, just because you're not in agreement? I'm praising Sun when I
believe it deserves it, and criticising them in the same way. Of course,
all of that, in my judgment, is fair.
Could you agree at least that we have different viewpoints, that maybe
I'm seeing things that you don't, just as you obviously know things that
I don't?
This list is about Advocacy, means to promote the OpenSolaris Project,
and, of course, answering to criticism is part of it. You've provided a
bunch of good answers already in that threads, which only need to be
backed by some references on official web pages. But criticism can't be
answered by saying it's not fair, and praise can't be said to be not
loud enough.
Remember that this gift was not asked for!
There wasn't that kind of request from the Solaris Community I knew, and
the Linux communities were asking for GNU GPL when they thought some bit
of code would look nice with a penguin on it.
So expecting everybody to fall in love with it at first sight is asking
a bit too much: there *is* a need to convince people it's something
useful for them.

If you think it's useless, fine, you don't have to do anything, but I'd
still like to hear from others if you don't mind :-)

> The irony is that even without the man pages that Sun can't yet
> redistribute, OpenSolaris probably still has more, better
> documentation than most GNU/Linux distributions.

Oh, I so completely agree there! The man page were really one of the
first reasons I started to use Solaris 2.6 and 7 when I was a student,
in particular to use the C functions. Having them rewritten would be
really a loss. And that there are no plans to open them is certainly sad.

> Remove option? You mean pkg uninstall? It's already there.

Yes, I see it. Weird. I was looking for it not so long ago, how did I
miss it?

> ...and understanding. There has been so much given if folks are
> willing to get out there and use it.

Right. I still don't understand a lot of it. I want understanding
through transparency.

Laurent
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