[osol-mktg] Re: LinuxWorld Report

[Ben Rockwood]

Jen wrote:

>Until now I was just a guest who read all the posts and kept an eye on OpenSolaris - am a Gentoo user (2005.1 is out and the X LiveCD is really cool!) I also run Solaris 10 on a spare Athlon system after a friend convinced me to try it out. I love DTrace - I'd like to get it on my Linux boxes too.
>
>What got me to register? This post really ticked me off - registered just to reply. Sun is supposed to be supporting Linux and Solaris isn't it??? Unfortunately I wasn't at LinuxWorld this year but you know what it's "Linux"World... If Sun and OpenSolaris want to work together and collaborate with the Linux community that's great; let's make some great software. But you need to realize Linux is cool too and has some advantages over S10.
>
>I highly doubt your post or actions reflect the right attitude to take in bringing two communities together - if anything you're leaching off the Linux community sitting around at "Linux"World just trying to "convert" people instead of working with them. You've basically just said you sat around at LinuxWorld and told everyone "Screw Linux, try out Solaris because it's better" and that's not a universal truth. There are a lot of reasons people flocked to Linux and left Solaris, AIX, IRIX, etc, etc. Wake up; that's not how you bring in developers who worked hard on various parts of Linux and OSS that OpenSolaris leverages as well.
>
>I doubt you speak for everyone but you've underscored something that I don't quite understand about this dual "We support Linux and Solaris" mantra... Apparently if you're working the Sun booth you have enough ties to be a representative of the company and I don't think your post has reflected a positive Linux message whatsoever. Did you even have Linux running anywhere in the booth? I was at SF-LW last year and loved the Looking Glass on JDS/Linux...
>  
>
Hello Jen.

  I'm not quite sure how I ticked you off, and your putting words in my 
mouth, but thats ok.  I can understand how you feel.  I'm posting my 
report to the OpenSolaris marketing list and hence I'm not going to 
spend time sharing all the great things I said about Linux... but if 
thats what you'd like lets do that.

  Was I running Linux in the booth?  Yes, in a sense.  I brought my 
personal workstation.  Anyone that knows me will be glad to tell you 
that I'm a massive fan of Gentoo, in fact, I'm writting this message on 
Gentoo Linux.  I've run Linux for years, active in the community, etc, 
etc, etc.  My workstation dual booths Gentoo Linux and OpenSolaris.  One 
of the many reasons that I brought my workstation was to illustrate how 
easy it is for someone currently using Linux to also install OpenSolaris 
and allow quick booting between the two from a centralized and unified 
booth infistructure (that being GRUB).  Only once did someone that I 
talk to seem interested in this capability and I was thrilled ot show 
off NewBoot, boot into Kernel 2.6.8, poke around, then reboot back into 
OpenSolaris B18. 

  Now..  I take _great_ offence to your saying that I would say "screw 
linux".   You've done what the press has done to Sun... I did NOT 
attack, nor shall I ever, Linux.  I DO have some harsh things to say 
about Red Hat Enterprise Linux.  RHEL is screwing their customers, they 
believe their getting something inexpensive and then they get a bill and 
start scratching their head.  Plus, support is terrible!  Here are my 
key points in the Red Hat/Linux/Sun discussion:

 - If Solaris is known for one thing, and one thing only, its 
reliability.  Solaris powers hospitals, governments, major 
corperations.  Reliability is key.  Linux _can_ be reliable, but doesn't 
have the track record that Solaris has.
 - Linux is a wonderful desktop operating system.  Driver support is 
superior to Solaris, no one, no where, will dispute that.  
Solaris/OpenSolaris driver support is getting significantly better, 
build by build, but Linux is the UNIX driver king, and we won't argue 
that at all.  Despite that, I'll add, my Canon digital camera works, my 
iPod works, etc.
 - Linux is an amazing platform for HPC.  While Solaris can do the HPC 
thing (HPC ClusterTools <http://www.sun.com/servers/hpc/software/>, N1 
Grid Engine <http://www.sun.com/software/gridware/index.xml>) you just 
can't argue with Linux's real strong point, which is HPC cluster 
solutions such as OpenMOSIX and Beowulf.  If your deploying HPC, by all 
means, go Linux, if a node blows up, no biggy... but if your deploying a 
billing system thats going to be the life blood of your company, thats a 
diffrent story.
 - While, for years, Linux was the best development platform around, 
with innovations such as DTrace, the availblity of Sun ONE Studio, and 
the variety of tools in Solaris 10 you simply can't discount Solaris as 
a comprehensive development platform.  Personally, speaking for myself, 
I find myself frustrated with the limited tools on Linux and have moved 
much of my development to OpenSolaris, booting back to Linux for 
testing.  Thats not for everyone, but its a far cry from Solaris9 and 
prior when it just didn't make sense to do X86 development on Solaris; 
at which time I actually did the opposite, I'd develop on Linux and then 
test on Solaris.
 - RHEL isn't the cheap solution that everyone wants you to believe that 
it is.  The pricing structure is insane.  You generaly pay the same 
price for enterprise applications such as Oracle or DB2 on Linux as you 
pay on Solaris, AIX, HP or whatever.  Where is this magical cost saving 
solution?  
 - Solaris engineers work for Sun, if your problem can't be properly 
resolved you can escalate the issue to get to the guy that wrote it and 
work with him to fix it... and she/he _will_ fix it, its his/her job.  
With any Linux distribution you don't have that confidence, you don't 
have that ability.  I'm not saying they can't solve the problem, but 
having a corperation like Sun supply the operating system does have its 
advantages... and of course, the same can be said for any corperation 
that wrote its own OS, be it HP-UX, IRIX or AIX, but thats security that 
Red Hat can't provide.


  ... okey, I can go on and on and on, but we'll have this discussion 
some time over beers, but you get the general idea.  My closing line 
with people that looked confused and worn down by all the diffrent 
solutions was that all this (point around the room) is really supposed 
to be about choice, YOUR choice, and what Sun offers is another choice, 
and we think a better choice, but before you make your decision, just 
please give Sun a call, and have a 5 minute talk and get a quote, 
nothing more, and just compare, if for nothing but due dilegance, 
because I see so many people who regret moving to RHEL, just know what 
your getting into and the alternatives, whether thats Sun or IBM or Red 
Hat, so that you can be happy.  Because being happy is what this is all 
suppose to be about, to me anyway. 

  And, if it makes you feel better, I don't know why I have to mention 
it, but the guys from Scyld and Gentoo spent a lot of time hanging out 
with me at the booth too, very kool guys, I know several and we had a 
great time.  Some guys from Penguin Computing came over too.

  Look, if you think LinuxWorld is about "Linux", you've never gone.  
Its not.  It was once, but that all ended long ago.  Now its about 
business.  Real open source projects have to beg and pleed to get a 
booth at the show and only a handful are provided (at the Enlightenment 
project we tried but they filled up on the first day or application, we 
called in the afternoon).  If you don't work for a company no one there 
will even talk to you, and thats not what open source is about.  And, 
furthermore, have you looked at the show line up at LinuxWorld?  How 
many have anything to do with Linux?  Now, remember, Linux is a 
kernel... answer, very very few, and most of those aren't associated 
with a company and stuffed into .Org Pavillion.  HP, IBM, Intel, AMD, 
Oracle, Sybase, SGI... they aren't there to pump up Linux, they are 
there to sell servers.  The rest of the companies are there pushing Open 
Source projects  that are company funded or based... and OpenSolaris is 
just such a project.  It should really be cause Open Source World or 
something.  NetBSD and others were there too.  Were they invading?  A 
good friend of mine is even the guy in the BSD Beastie suit who goes 
around the show every year... is he invading? 

  If your upset that OpenSolaris was at LinuxWorld then put the blame on 
me personally.  I was the one to push (look at the archives) to have us 
there while others said we shouldn't.  I think it was the right thing to 
do and people benifited and enjoyed seeing what OpenSolaris had to 
offer.  I wasn't there to "convert" anyone.  I was there to show them 
what Solaris has to offer... and I, not being a Sun employee and also 
being a long time Linux developer and community member, am far better 
equipted to have that discussion than anyone from Sun.  Furthermore, I'm 
also a customer... if my servers crash at 3am I don't sleep, if they 
can't be fixed quickly I loose my job... thats important, thats imporant 
to my family, thats something that really matters to my employeer, to my 
coworkers, to me, and to my family, and Solaris is what I, personally, 
choose to deploy on, because thats what Sun does, thats what Sun has 
always done.  Customers at LinuxWorld are being told from ever corner 
that they have to switch to Linux or be stuck in proprietary hell, I'm 
telling them to just catch their breath and realize that its their 
choice, and there are some good options, and personally I think better 
options, out there, and they at least should take a look, and it won't 
cost them a dime to try it.


  Please feel free to talk to ANYONE that I spoke with at LinuxWorld and 
find someone that was told to convert or that Linux sucks.  I've been 
working my ass off to build a bridge here because I personally live in 
both worlds and its really damned important to me.  I've got a long long 
history, feel free to investigate it.  And if you live in the bay area, 
which I highly doubt, let me know because I'd love to buy you a beer and 
talk this out.  This is a really hard discussion to have in email.

  benr.

(PS: I'm really tired, but thought I needed to respond to this ASAP, so 
if I got something wrong or made a dumbass typo above please give me an 
inch or two.  Thanks.)
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