From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Mon Apr 2 20:25:13 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:25:13 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs Message-ID: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> Hello ... I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User Group Community: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both communities have many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as well. It would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on some common goals and under a new name. I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues and agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, both of which will have to be involved in any merger. So, any thoughts pro or con? Jim -- Jim Grisanzio, Community Manager, OpenSolaris http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris | http://opensolaris.org/os/ From Xinfeng.Liu at Sun.COM Mon Apr 2 20:41:52 2007 From: Xinfeng.Liu at Sun.COM (Xin-Feng Liu) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:41:52 +0800 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> I agree on the idea. The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page(on the left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that screen section. Thanks, Xinfeng Liu Shanghai User Group Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007?04?03? 11:25,: > Hello ... > > I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User > Group Community: > > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ > > It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- > especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both communities have > many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via > various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list > memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as well. It > would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on > some common goals and under a new name. > > I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues and > agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, both > of which will have to be involved in any merger. > > So, any thoughts pro or con? > > Jim From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Mon Apr 2 22:16:51 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:16:51 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4611E343.2080605@sun.com> Xin-Feng Liu wrote: > I agree on the idea. > The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of > marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page(on the > left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very > easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that > screen section. > > Thanks, > Xinfeng Liu > Shanghai User Group Hi ... Yes, the problem of the nav bar is tied to the site structure itself and also that we have a lot of UG's now so the list is quite long and the nesting can be confusing. We'll have to work around that until it's changed. But, sure, I don't want to reduce anyone's visibility so much as I'd like to focus things more. Thanks, Jim -- Jim Grisanzio, Community Manager, OpenSolaris http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris | http://opensolaris.org/os/ > Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007?04?03? 11:25,: >> Hello ... >> >> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User >> Group Community: >> >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ >> >> It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- >> especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both communities have >> many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via >> various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list >> memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as well. It >> would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on >> some common goals and under a new name. >> >> I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues and >> agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, both >> of which will have to be involved in any merger. >> >> So, any thoughts pro or con? >> >> Jim > > _______________________________________________ > ug-discuss mailing list > ug-discuss at opensolaris.org From Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM Mon Apr 2 22:19:44 2007 From: Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM (Bruno F. Souza) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 02:19:44 -0300 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On the UG community, we could include the Mkt content as a clearly separated, on the top, and merge it with any general content for supporting the creation and run of UGs. The question then becomes: if someone comes looking for OS User Groups, they will know how to find. Now, if someone comes looking for material to promote OS? Will they find it at the UGs Community? Will this be obvious? Bruno. On 03/04/2007, at 00:41, Xin-Feng Liu wrote: > I agree on the idea. > The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of > marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page > (on the > left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very > easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that > screen section. > > Thanks, > Xinfeng Liu > Shanghai User Group > > > Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007?04?03? 11:25,: >> Hello ... >> >> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the >> User >> Group Community: >> >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ >> >> It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- >> especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both >> communities have >> many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via >> various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list >> memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as >> well. It >> would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on >> some common goals and under a new name. >> >> I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues >> and >> agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, >> both >> of which will have to be involved in any merger. >> >> So, any thoughts pro or con? >> >> Jim > > _______________________________________________ > ug-discuss mailing list > ug-discuss at opensolaris.org Bruno. ______________________________________________________________________ Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe From kaiwai.gardiner at gmail.com Mon Apr 2 22:31:30 2007 From: kaiwai.gardiner at gmail.com (Kaiwai Gardiner) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:31:30 +1200 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> Message-ID: Hi, For me, I don't think the two should merge as both groups have different goals; Marketing is setup to evangelise OpenSolaris and its respective technologies to the rest of the 'industry' (used int he most loosest of terms) and to develop dialogue with the user community, which hopefully can then be relayed to the programmers and those who do the design, analysis and implementation - call us the intemediary between the users and the worker bee's. What I do propose, however, is for the two to have a closer working relationship, as dialogue between the marketing and user group(s) is necessary for the 'worker bee's' to know what customers want, who current sit outside the Sun 'customer list' - the end users *could* pass long requests directly, but the better way would be for us to consolidate the issues into one voice so that there is a consist voice with a matrix of issues that concern them. End users will also be able to help provide feed back on the effectiveness of marketing on 'the unwashed masses' - whether the right avenue's are being used to market OpenSolaris given the market demographic which we are trying to aim for - if we're trying to aim for CIO's, is it smarter to market on Slashdot or the coffee magazine which the executive has at their coffee table? Matthew On 03/04/07, Bruno F. Souza wrote: > > > On the UG community, we could include the Mkt content as a clearly > separated, on the top, and merge it with any general content for > supporting the creation and run of UGs. > > The question then becomes: if someone comes looking for OS User > Groups, they will know how to find. Now, if someone comes looking for > material to promote OS? Will they find it at the UGs Community? Will > this be obvious? > > Bruno. > > On 03/04/2007, at 00:41, Xin-Feng Liu wrote: > > > I agree on the idea. > > The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of > > marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page > > (on the > > left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very > > easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that > > screen section. > > > > Thanks, > > Xinfeng Liu > > Shanghai User Group > > > > > > Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007?04?03? 11:25,: > >> Hello ... > >> > >> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the > >> User > >> Group Community: > >> > >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ > >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ > >> > >> It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- > >> especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both > >> communities have > >> many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via > >> various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list > >> memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as > >> well. It > >> would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on > >> some common goals and under a new name. > >> > >> I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues > >> and > >> agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, > >> both > >> of which will have to be involved in any merger. > >> > >> So, any thoughts pro or con? > >> > >> Jim > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ug-discuss mailing list > > ug-discuss at opensolaris.org > > Bruno. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan > http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br > if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe > > > > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-mktg mailing list > opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Laura.Ramsey at Sun.COM Tue Apr 3 04:28:14 2007 From: Laura.Ramsey at Sun.COM (Laura Ramsey) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:28:14 -0400 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4611E343.2080605@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <4611E343.2080605@sun.com> Message-ID: <46123A4E.3060003@sun.com> Jim Grisanzio wrote: >Xin-Feng Liu wrote: > > >>I agree on the idea. >>The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of >>marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page(on the >>left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very >>easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that >>screen section. >> >>Thanks, >>Xinfeng Liu >>Shanghai User Group >> >> > > > >Hi ... > >Yes, the problem of the nav bar is tied to the site structure itself and >also that we have a lot of UG's now so the list is quite long and the >nesting can be confusing. We'll have to work around that until it's >changed. But, sure, I don't want to reduce anyone's visibility so much >as I'd like to focus things more. > >Thanks, > > >Jim > > Perhaps organizing the user groups by region --having them nested under the main regional heading pages--would solve the long list problem. Might also help user groups to leverage their geographies better. Combining the user groups with the marketing community (or any community) will push them further from the front page--if we have a button on the Home page that points directly to the user group page that will be solved. So perhaps an icon up on the top next to communities, project, chats...? LKR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Laura.Ramsey at Sun.COM Tue Apr 3 04:29:03 2007 From: Laura.Ramsey at Sun.COM (Laura Ramsey) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:29:03 -0400 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <46123A7F.6030506@sun.com> Bruno F. Souza wrote: > > On the UG community, we could include the Mkt content as a clearly > separated, on the top, and merge it with any general content for > supporting the creation and run of UGs. > > The question then becomes: if someone comes looking for OS User > Groups, they will know how to find. Now, if someone comes looking for > material to promote OS? Will they find it at the UGs Community? Will > this be obvious? Agreed. Maybe an icon at the top of the homepage is the best approach. > > > Bruno. > > On 03/04/2007, at 00:41, Xin-Feng Liu wrote: > >> I agree on the idea. >> The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of >> marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page (on >> the >> left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very >> easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that >> screen section. >> >> Thanks, >> Xinfeng Liu >> Shanghai User Group >> >> >> Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007?04?03? 11:25,: >> >>> Hello ... >>> >>> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User >>> Group Community: >>> >>> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ >>> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ >>> >>> It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- >>> especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both communities >>> have >>> many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via >>> various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list >>> memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as well. It >>> would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on >>> some common goals and under a new name. >>> >>> I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues and >>> agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, both >>> of which will have to be involved in any merger. >>> >>> So, any thoughts pro or con? >>> >>> Jim >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ug-discuss mailing list >> ug-discuss at opensolaris.org > > > Bruno. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan > http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br > if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe > > > > _______________________________________________ > ug-discuss mailing list > ug-discuss at opensolaris.org > From stevel at sun.com Tue Apr 3 15:58:49 2007 From: stevel at sun.com (Stephen Lau) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:58:49 -0700 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <20070403225849.GG288472@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> Maybe rename it to the 'Evangelisation' community (or Evangelization if you feel opposed to British spelling[1]), since that is something that is clearly common to both marketing and user groups. cheers, steve On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 02:19:44AM -0300, Bruno F. Souza wrote: > > On the UG community, we could include the Mkt content as a clearly > separated, on the top, and merge it with any general content for > supporting the creation and run of UGs. > > The question then becomes: if someone comes looking for OS User > Groups, they will know how to find. Now, if someone comes looking for > material to promote OS? Will they find it at the UGs Community? Will > this be obvious? > > Bruno. > > On 03/04/2007, at 00:41, Xin-Feng Liu wrote: > > >I agree on the idea. > >The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of > >marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page > >(on the > >left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very > >easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that > >screen section. > > > >Thanks, > >Xinfeng Liu > >Shanghai User Group > > > > > >Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007??04??03?? 11:25,: > >>Hello ... > >> > >>I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the > >>User > >>Group Community: > >> > >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ > >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ > >> > >>It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- > >>especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both > >>communities have > >>many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via > >>various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list > >>memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as > >>well. It > >>would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on > >>some common goals and under a new name. > >> > >>I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues > >>and > >>agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, > >>both > >>of which will have to be involved in any merger. > >> > >>So, any thoughts pro or con? > >> > >>Jim > > > >_______________________________________________ > >ug-discuss mailing list > >ug-discuss at opensolaris.org > > Bruno. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan > http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br > if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe > > > > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-mktg mailing list > opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org -- stephen lau // stevel at sun.com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net opensolaris // solaris kernel development From stevel at sun.com Tue Apr 3 16:01:38 2007 From: stevel at sun.com (Stephen Lau) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:01:38 -0700 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <20070403225849.GG288472@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <20070403225849.GG288472@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> Message-ID: <20070403230138.GH288472@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> my missing [1] footnote should be "though, keep in mind the English invented English before Americans bastardised it". cheers, steve On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 03:58:49PM -0700, Stephen Lau wrote: > Maybe rename it to the 'Evangelisation' community (or Evangelization if > you feel opposed to British spelling[1]), since that is something that > is clearly common to both marketing and user groups. > > cheers, > steve > > On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 02:19:44AM -0300, Bruno F. Souza wrote: > > > > On the UG community, we could include the Mkt content as a clearly > > separated, on the top, and merge it with any general content for > > supporting the creation and run of UGs. > > > > The question then becomes: if someone comes looking for OS User > > Groups, they will know how to find. Now, if someone comes looking for > > material to promote OS? Will they find it at the UGs Community? Will > > this be obvious? > > > > Bruno. > > > > On 03/04/2007, at 00:41, Xin-Feng Liu wrote: > > > > >I agree on the idea. > > >The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of > > >marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page > > >(on the > > >left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very > > >easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that > > >screen section. > > > > > >Thanks, > > >Xinfeng Liu > > >Shanghai User Group > > > > > > > > >Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007??04??03?? 11:25,: > > >>Hello ... > > >> > > >>I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the > > >>User > > >>Group Community: > > >> > > >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ > > >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ > > >> > > >>It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- > > >>especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both > > >>communities have > > >>many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via > > >>various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list > > >>memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as > > >>well. It > > >>would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on > > >>some common goals and under a new name. > > >> > > >>I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues > > >>and > > >>agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, > > >>both > > >>of which will have to be involved in any merger. > > >> > > >>So, any thoughts pro or con? > > >> > > >>Jim > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >ug-discuss mailing list > > >ug-discuss at opensolaris.org > > > > Bruno. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan > > http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br > > if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > opensolaris-mktg mailing list > > opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org > > -- > stephen lau // stevel at sun.com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net > opensolaris // solaris kernel development > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-mktg mailing list > opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org -- stephen lau // stevel at sun.com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net opensolaris // solaris kernel development From Sara.Dornsife at Sun.COM Tue Apr 3 16:18:27 2007 From: Sara.Dornsife at Sun.COM (Sara Dornsife) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:18:27 -0500 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <20070403225849.GG288472@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <20070403225849.GG288472@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4612E0C3.1020801@sun.com> I like that. I too think that there are a lot similarities and a lot of cross posting to the two groups. I agree with a consolidation. Sara Stephen Lau wrote: > Maybe rename it to the 'Evangelisation' community (or Evangelization if > you feel opposed to British spelling[1]), since that is something that > is clearly common to both marketing and user groups. > > cheers, > steve > > On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 02:19:44AM -0300, Bruno F. Souza wrote: > >> On the UG community, we could include the Mkt content as a clearly >> separated, on the top, and merge it with any general content for >> supporting the creation and run of UGs. >> >> The question then becomes: if someone comes looking for OS User >> Groups, they will know how to find. Now, if someone comes looking for >> material to promote OS? Will they find it at the UGs Community? Will >> this be obvious? >> >> Bruno. >> >> On 03/04/2007, at 00:41, Xin-Feng Liu wrote: >> >> >>> I agree on the idea. >>> The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of >>> marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page >>> (on the >>> left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very >>> easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that >>> screen section. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Xinfeng Liu >>> Shanghai User Group >>> >>> >>> Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007??04??03?? 11:25,: >>> >>>> Hello ... >>>> >>>> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the >>>> User >>>> Group Community: >>>> >>>> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ >>>> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ >>>> >>>> It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- >>>> especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both >>>> communities have >>>> many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via >>>> various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list >>>> memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as >>>> well. It >>>> would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on >>>> some common goals and under a new name. >>>> >>>> I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues >>>> and >>>> agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, >>>> both >>>> of which will have to be involved in any merger. >>>> >>>> So, any thoughts pro or con? >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ug-discuss mailing list >>> ug-discuss at opensolaris.org >>> >> Bruno. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan >> http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br >> if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> opensolaris-mktg mailing list >> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com Tue Apr 3 22:38:26 2007 From: Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com (Alan DuBoff) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:38:26 -0700 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <200704032238.26870.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> On Monday 02 April 2007 08:25 pm, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User > Group Community: I don't think it makes sense. What are you trying to accomplish by doing such? User Groups are grass roots to me, and marketing is driven by a bottom line, and implies such. Maybe I wouldn't mind if it was called something else, because marketing makes me itch... -- Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company! From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Tue Apr 3 23:43:51 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 15:43:51 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <200704032238.26870.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <200704032238.26870.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> Message-ID: <46134927.3080803@Sun.COM> Alan DuBoff wrote On 04/04/07 14:38,: > On Monday 02 April 2007 08:25 pm, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > >>I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User >>Group Community: > > > I don't think it makes sense. > > What are you trying to accomplish by doing such? Sometimes consolidation can strengthen both sides. Both the current marketing and UG communities attempt to reach out to new people and most of those people are not kernel developers. Many of those people are technical, true, but I'd argue that many are not. So, I'm looking to see if there is a home in the OpenSolaris community for non-technical people and general users and people who will probably never touch source code. as we grow, we'll get more and more non-technical. We need start thinking about that. > User Groups are grass roots to me, and marketing is driven by a bottom line, > and implies such. Our UGs are independent, sure, but they (most of them) also have web space on the UG community and a group list/forum. Communication and sharing between groups takes place on this list (ug-discuss), but to be honest, that hasn't happened much. Now, I don't want to break that model at all, but I'd just like to explore the notion of making it part of something bigger so we can leverage and focus the few resources we do have so we can interact more and more globally. I like the model of multiple user groups within a meta UG community, but I think that that community can be stronger with a merger and with more leaders driving activity /across/ groups (and conferences, etc). Also, I'm not talking about Sun corporate marketing here. Sure, if Sun marketing people want to get involved in the community, they are more than welcome -- but they have to earn their way just like everyone else. Some do, and some do not -- just like other parts of the organization internally. In a merger, however, I'm hoping that interest will be great enough to grow a true OpenSolaris /community/ marketing/user effort. Sara, Patrick, Laura, and others have been involved all along, but we as a community need to promote OpenSolaris ourselves much more and not necessarily depend on expensive Sun programs to do so. Sun will chip in, obviously, such as with things like the Starter Kit. But that's big cash when you are talking about the free distribution of Starter Kit media to more than 120 countries. Only Sun can do that. But what Sun can't do is the massively distributed grass-roots activities, and that's where the community comes in. That's what we as a community have not fully explored since we launched. I don't have answer here, but that's the direction of my thinking. > Maybe I wouldn't mind if it was called something else, because marketing makes > me itch... *scratch* Yes, we need to re-name the new (potentially combined) community and it can't be marketing. There's nothing wrong with the word "marketing" per say, but it connotes Sun corporate control and money, and that's most certainly not what I'm after and it's not what any of the Sun OpenSolaris marketing people want either. So, to avoid the confusion, we ought to consider a new name that we all agree on. Jim From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 4 00:18:55 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:18:55 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing In-Reply-To: <24521368.1175662767001.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> References: <24521368.1175662767001.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> Message-ID: <4613515F.7060507@Sun.COM> Richard L. Hamilton wrote On 04/04/07 13:58,: > Does marketing mostly represent the opensolaris.org community > (and is this explicit somewhere, i.e. does something in the community structure > have some real control over marketing), Yes. Open, community-based marketing, not Sun corporate or product marketing. That's my perspective. The current Marketing Community actually grew out of the PR-press list I started during the pilot program. This pre-dates marketing involvement in OpenSolaris, and there was no UG community or even any discussion of UGs at that time. Back then it was simply a list where the pilot community could discuss PR/marketing/blogging issues without having to clog up the main technical lists. I felt it was important at the time since we were under attack so much before we launched, we couldn't say much publically due to the NDA, and we needed a forum to discuss the various issues and how/if to respond. We also used it to start blogging about what we could talk about. Then when we launched, we re-named that list to the generic "marketing" and created a community space around it since Sun marketing teams were then forming to help support OpenSolaris and that would be their space to work and build a marketing community. Then almost immediately after we launched, the Sun marketing director expressed an interest to me in starting user groups and in funding some programs. I didn't have any cash, so it would have to come from marketing. The idea quite literally came from marketing, actually, and then Eric, Sara, Laura, and I created the User Group Community as a result. We didn't have a lot of cash, so we decided to form a community, rather than creating a Sun "program" which no one seemed to want anyway. So, it became individual user groups, all housed within the UG community, which itself lived within the meta OpenSolaris community and was supported, in part, by the marketing community, which, of course was already established and separate from the UG community. Very confusing. And to top it off, the site isn't really structured for how we've build the UG community. Each group has a page and a list and there are about 40 or so leaders as a result. It's a mess. And a mess primarily because it's been pretty successful, which, of course, is great. So, the marketing and UG communities have always been pretty much tied at most times. Sun marketing people have provided resources to various groups at times (when they had resources to offer), and when Sun participates in conferences (Tech Days, Open Source events, etc), it's generally the marketing people interacting with the various user groups. And although Teresa, Eric, Linda, and I are not in marketing specifically, we've been involved all along as well and mix rather freely at times with our marketing colleagues at events such as conferences. > or does it mostly represent Sun's > interests in the community? I'm not sure how Sun expresses it's interest in the community, to be honest. Perhaps you mean Solaris product marketing? > If the former, the restructuring makes sense; > if the latter, I think it gives the _appearance_ of reducing the user groups > to a mere appendage of Sun. I don't think that's the _intent_, but stupid > conspiracy theories have been started on far less. Yah, I think we're safe from the conspiracy types on this. And here's why I say that: I don't have any new money or control to offer in my proposal. I'm only suggesting that we clean up the structure and mandates of both communities and focus what little resources we all have. I'm expecting the new OGB to be talking a hard look at all the OpenSolaris communities and projects, and I can't help but see some ways to consolidate here. If we do this, I think it will take some time, especially with the website team to figure out the structure. Jim From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 4 00:36:09 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:36:09 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <46135569.2050400@Sun.COM> Kaiwai Gardiner wrote On 04/03/07 14:31,: > Hi, > > For me, I don't think the two should merge as both groups have different > goals; Marketing is setup to evangelise OpenSolaris and its respective > technologies to the rest of the 'industry' (used int he most loosest of > terms) and to develop dialogue with the user community, which hopefully > can then be relayed to the programmers and those who do the design, > analysis and implementation - call us the intemediary between the users > and the worker bee's. > > What I do propose, however, is for the two to have a closer working > relationship, as dialogue between the marketing and user group(s) is > necessary for the 'worker bee's' to know what customers want, who > current sit outside the Sun 'customer list' - the end users *could* pass > long requests directly, but the better way would be for us to > consolidate the issues into one voice so that there is a consist voice > with a matrix of issues that concern them. I agree that the two need a closer working relationship, which is why I'm suggesting that they live within one community. Now, that new community will have many parts -- user groups, presentations, video/audio, screen-casts, contests, t-shirts, web buttons, advertising, marketing, branding campaigns, PR activities, profiles, Patrick's metrics, other forms of technical and non-technical content (newsletters, etc), conferences & events, etc. Try to think of it *without* the word "marketing" in mind, but simply the general evangelization (as Steve suggested) of OpenSolaris. Think of how strong that new group could be. Also, under the new Constitution, each Community Group will interact with the OGB. Wouldn't the interests of the UG and Marketing communities be better served under one combined voice since so many of their issues overlap? Jim From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 4 00:47:30 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:47:30 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <20070403225849.GG288472@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <20070403225849.GG288472@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> Message-ID: <46135812.5040303@Sun.COM> Evangelization is an obvious choice and a good one, too. I'm not sure how the term works internationally, though. We'll have to hear from some others. I'm not good at naming things, so I'd be happy to defer to others on this part. :) Jim Stephen Lau wrote On 04/04/07 07:58,: > Maybe rename it to the 'Evangelisation' community (or Evangelization if > you feel opposed to British spelling[1]), since that is something that > is clearly common to both marketing and user groups. > > cheers, > steve > > On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 02:19:44AM -0300, Bruno F. Souza wrote: > >>On the UG community, we could include the Mkt content as a clearly >>separated, on the top, and merge it with any general content for >>supporting the creation and run of UGs. >> >>The question then becomes: if someone comes looking for OS User >>Groups, they will know how to find. Now, if someone comes looking for >>material to promote OS? Will they find it at the UGs Community? Will >>this be obvious? >> >>Bruno. >> >>On 03/04/2007, at 00:41, Xin-Feng Liu wrote: >> >> >>>I agree on the idea. >>>The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of >>>marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page >>>(on the >>>left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very >>>easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that >>>screen section. >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Xinfeng Liu >>>Shanghai User Group >>> >>> >>>Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007??04??03?? 11:25,: >>> >>>>Hello ... >>>> >>>>I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the >>>>User >>>>Group Community: >>>> >>>> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ >>>> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ >>>> >>>>It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- >>>>especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both >>>>communities have >>>>many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via >>>>various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list >>>>memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as >>>>well. It >>>>would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on >>>>some common goals and under a new name. >>>> >>>>I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues >>>>and >>>>agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, >>>>both >>>>of which will have to be involved in any merger. >>>> >>>>So, any thoughts pro or con? >>>> >>>>Jim >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>ug-discuss mailing list >>>ug-discuss at opensolaris.org >> >>Bruno. >>______________________________________________________________________ >>Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan >>http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br >> if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>opensolaris-mktg mailing list >>opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org > > From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 4 00:53:26 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:53:26 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <46135976.1070203@Sun.COM> Bruno F. Souza wrote On 04/03/07 14:19,: > > On the UG community, we could include the Mkt content as a clearly > separated, on the top, and merge it with any general content for > supporting the creation and run of UGs. > > The question then becomes: if someone comes looking for OS User Groups, > they will know how to find. Now, if someone comes looking for material > to promote OS? Will they find it at the UGs Community? Will this be > obvious? hey, Bruno ... and welcome! :) Good points. And we'd have to make UGs quite obvious within the new community since the'd be a core part of that communty. Jim > Bruno. > > On 03/04/2007, at 00:41, Xin-Feng Liu wrote: > >> I agree on the idea. >> The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of >> marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page (on the >> left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very >> easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that >> screen section. >> >> Thanks, >> Xinfeng Liu >> Shanghai User Group >> >> >> Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007?04?03? 11:25,: >> >>> Hello ... >>> >>> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User >>> Group Community: >>> >>> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ >>> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ >>> >>> It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- >>> especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both communities >>> have >>> many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via >>> various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list >>> memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as well. It >>> would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on >>> some common goals and under a new name. >>> >>> I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues and >>> agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, both >>> of which will have to be involved in any merger. >>> >>> So, any thoughts pro or con? >>> >>> Jim >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ug-discuss mailing list >> ug-discuss at opensolaris.org > > > Bruno. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan > http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br > if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe > > > From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 4 00:57:02 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:57:02 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <46123A7F.6030506@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <46123A7F.6030506@sun.com> Message-ID: <46135A4E.3090407@Sun.COM> Laura Ramsey wrote On 04/03/07 20:29,: > Bruno F. Souza wrote: > > >>On the UG community, we could include the Mkt content as a clearly >>separated, on the top, and merge it with any general content for >>supporting the creation and run of UGs. >> >>The question then becomes: if someone comes looking for OS User >>Groups, they will know how to find. Now, if someone comes looking for >>material to promote OS? Will they find it at the UGs Community? Will >>this be obvious? > > > Agreed. Maybe an icon at the top of the homepage is the best approach. I'd support the argument for a UG link on the front page or a link to this new community (since it's really for general people, not for kernel developers). I don't want to confuse the home page, per say, but I think we'll eventually need something to direct users and non developers within the site. Jim >>Bruno. >> >>On 03/04/2007, at 00:41, Xin-Feng Liu wrote: >> >> >>>I agree on the idea. >>>The only comment is to make sure not to lower the visibility of >>>marketing community/contents. In the current user_group home page (on >>>the >>>left side of the screen), the user group list is too long and not very >>>easy to look up. It might be better to reorganize the content in that >>>screen section. >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Xinfeng Liu >>>Shanghai User Group >>> >>> >>>Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007?04?03? 11:25,: >>> >>> >>>>Hello ... >>>> >>>>I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User >>>>Group Community: >>>> >>>>http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ >>>>http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ >>>> >>>>It seems to me that both communities could benefit from a merger -- >>>>especially under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Both communities >>>>have >>>>many things in common -- they engage new people around the world via >>>>various programs and direct meetings and conferences, their list >>>>memberships are pretty similar, and they share some content as well. It >>>>would seem to make sense that they merge to focus their resources on >>>>some common goals and under a new name. >>>> >>>>I'm starting this conversation here so we can flush out the issues and >>>>agree (or not agree) before we go to the website team and the OGB, both >>>>of which will have to be involved in any merger. >>>> >>>>So, any thoughts pro or con? >>>> >>>>Jim >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>ug-discuss mailing list >>>ug-discuss at opensolaris.org >> >> >>Bruno. >>______________________________________________________________________ >>Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan >>http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br >>if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>ug-discuss mailing list >>ug-discuss at opensolaris.org >> > > > From Patrick.Finch at Sun.COM Wed Apr 4 01:48:08 2007 From: Patrick.Finch at Sun.COM (Patrick Finch) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:48:08 +0200 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <200704032238.26870.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <200704032238.26870.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> Message-ID: <46136648.9040604@sun.com> I think that "marketing" is a broad term and one that is clearly emotive for many people on OpenSolaris.org. If we understand marketing to mean things like advertising, clearly Sun is able to do that for itself. So what is needed beyond Sun's own "marketing" of the project? I'd suggest that it is precisely the ability of community members to evangelise at the grassroots level, both face-to-face (attending conferences, and especially UGs) and also online. I think that people need to be able to contribute to what we used to call "OpenSolaris marketing" in a more bazaar-like manner. A chap started posting to this list a couple of weeks ago and wanted to get involved, wanted to spread the word. We didn't really have any programmes for him to join. This lead me to think that we should have a community that lets the interested and enthusiasts become more effective and responsible evangelists, and that's why I'm supportive of the proposal. Patrick Alan DuBoff wrote: > On Monday 02 April 2007 08:25 pm, Jim Grisanzio wrote: >> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User >> Group Community: > > I don't think it makes sense. > > What are you trying to accomplish by doing such? > > User Groups are grass roots to me, and marketing is driven by a bottom line, > and implies such. > > Maybe I wouldn't mind if it was called something else, because marketing makes > me itch... > From Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com Wed Apr 4 02:39:04 2007 From: Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com (Alan DuBoff) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 02:39:04 -0700 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing =?iso-8859-1?q?& UGs?= In-Reply-To: <46134927.3080803@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <200704032238.26870.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> <46134927.3080803@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <200704040239.04367.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> On Tuesday 03 April 2007 11:43 pm, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > Sometimes consolidation can strengthen both sides. Sure, and other times it drives them apart. > Also, I'm not talking about Sun corporate marketing here. Sure, if Sun > marketing people want to get involved in the community, they are more > than welcome -- but they have to earn their way just like everyone else. I hope you drop the marketing label, as a name. I don't think it represents what a community is, and something like community-reachout, or similar might be a better way to refer to that. I see the community doing this in a different capacicty, where local members of the community would host booths at open source conferences. > Some do, and some do not -- just like other parts of the organization > internally. In a merger, however, I'm hoping that interest will be great > enough to grow a true OpenSolaris /community/ marketing/user effort. > Sara, Patrick, Laura, and others have been involved all along, but we as > a community need to promote OpenSolaris ourselves much more and not > necessarily depend on expensive Sun programs to do so. Sure, in some ways. But please understand that things done from Sun will be seen with a certain Sun perspective. As an example, a community type grass roots movement would be "Windows Refund Day". I know that many might say that's corny, but it was an excellent grass roots event that was orchestrated and executed by the community. For other similar events, google "burn all gifs", or "Free Dmitry Sklyarov", or DeCSS...those were all grass roots movements (albeit the Dmitry cause was fueled in part by the EFF). There's other ways that out community can help, such as holding BOFs at conferences, getting together with other community members, helping people to get Solaris installed, configured in the best setup for them, etc...I think for the most part, many of the community enjoy this aspect of getting together and networking with other OpenSolaris folks. > But what Sun can't do is > the massively distributed grass-roots activities, and that's where the > community comes in. That's what we as a community have not fully > explored since we launched. I don't have answer here, but that's the > direction of my thinking. It takes motivated people also, that stuff doesn't grow on trees. > Yes, we need to re-name the new (potentially combined) community and it > can't be marketing. There's nothing wrong with the word "marketing" per > say, but it connotes Sun corporate control and money, and that's most > certainly not what I'm after and it's not what any of the Sun > OpenSolaris marketing people want either. So, to avoid the confusion, we > ought to consider a new name that we all agree on. We're certainly in agreement, but I'm not sure what to call it. I see it as a reach-out type program, maybe someone can think of a better word that has better meaning. -- Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company! From Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com Wed Apr 4 02:47:28 2007 From: Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com (Alan DuBoff) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 02:47:28 -0700 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing =?iso-8859-1?q?& UGs?= In-Reply-To: <46136648.9040604@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <200704032238.26870.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> <46136648.9040604@sun.com> Message-ID: <200704040247.28108.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> On Wednesday 04 April 2007 01:48 am, Patrick Finch wrote: > So what is needed beyond Sun's own "marketing" of the project? I'd > suggest that it is precisely the ability of community members to > evangelise at the grassroots level, both face-to-face (attending > conferences, and especially UGs) and also online. I think that people > need to be able to contribute to what we used to call "OpenSolaris > marketing" in a more bazaar-like manner. I agree, but don't use the "E" word, as it's on my business card.;-) I think we're all in agreement to toss the marketing label. > A chap started posting to this list a couple of weeks ago and wanted to > get involved, wanted to spread the word. We didn't really have any > programmes for him to join. This lead me to think that we should have a > community that lets the interested and enthusiasts become more effective > and responsible evangelists, and that's why I'm supportive of the proposal. Well, people need to be self sufficient also, in the sense that they need to become a part and get involved. We are getting more interest and I think in some ways it's probably good to try and scale growth accordingly. Otherwise it could get out of hand. -- Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company! From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 4 06:48:23 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 22:48:23 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <200704040239.04367.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <200704032238.26870.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> <46134927.3080803@Sun.COM> <200704040239.04367.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> Message-ID: <4613ACA7.20309@sun.com> Alan DuBoff wrote: > On Tuesday 03 April 2007 11:43 pm, Jim Grisanzio wrote: >> Sometimes consolidation can strengthen both sides. > > Sure, and other times it drives them apart. > >> Also, I'm not talking about Sun corporate marketing here. Sure, if Sun >> marketing people want to get involved in the community, they are more >> than welcome -- but they have to earn their way just like everyone else. > > I hope you drop the marketing label, as a name. I don't think it represents > what a community is, and something like community-reachout, or similar might > be a better way to refer to that. Yep. Agree. I've been up front all along that any potential merger of these two communities needs to be done under a new name and one that represents community input and agreement. > I see the community doing this in a different capacicty, where local members > of the community would host booths at open source conferences. Yes, I totally agree. Some of us have been pushing for that all along, too, and in some cases it's worked (but in most cases it's Sun running the various conference activities). All I'm suggesting here is that we have one space where we -- as a community -- can plan these things, share resources, and leverage each other's activities. It's already happening. You see that there have been open calls for papers for JavaOne and the OpenSolaris conference in Germany. This is a good trend and we can do more. Also, the UG community has really grown and been successful. If you follow some of individual lists, it's really cool to see individual communities growing in China and India and Russia, etc. The list conversation activity for UGs has grown sharply in the last 6 months. I'd like to be able to fan those flames and offer a more focused effort. Basically, to give the effort a higher platform and call more attention to it. >> Some do, and some do not -- just like other parts of the organization >> internally. In a merger, however, I'm hoping that interest will be great >> enough to grow a true OpenSolaris /community/ marketing/user effort. >> Sara, Patrick, Laura, and others have been involved all along, but we as >> a community need to promote OpenSolaris ourselves much more and not >> necessarily depend on expensive Sun programs to do so. > > Sure, in some ways. But please understand that things done from Sun will be > seen with a certain Sun perspective. As an example, a community type grass > roots movement would be "Windows Refund Day". I know that many might say > that's corny, but it was an excellent grass roots event that was orchestrated > and executed by the community. I would hope that the OpenSolaris community would start to assert it's own grass-roots activities. That's the whole point here. I agree. > For other similar events, google "burn all gifs", or "Free Dmitry Sklyarov", > or DeCSS...those were all grass roots movements (albeit the Dmitry cause was > fueled in part by the EFF). > > There's other ways that out community can help, such as holding BOFs at > conferences, getting together with other community members, helping people to > get Solaris installed, configured in the best setup for them, etc...I think > for the most part, many of the community enjoy this aspect of getting > together and networking with other OpenSolaris folks. Agree. We just did an installfest here in Tokyo: http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris/entry/opensolaris_installfest_pics And we gave out about 50 Starter Kits and we also participated in an Open Source Conference in Tokyo a few weeks ago as well to launch the Japan OpenSolaris User Group: http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris/entry/tokyo_open_source_conference_opensolaris We need to get better at posting pics and presentations, though, so everyone knows what's going on. >> But what Sun can't do is >> the massively distributed grass-roots activities, and that's where the >> community comes in. That's what we as a community have not fully >> explored since we launched. I don't have answer here, but that's the >> direction of my thinking. > > It takes motivated people also, that stuff doesn't grow on trees. Indeed. :) >> Yes, we need to re-name the new (potentially combined) community and it >> can't be marketing. There's nothing wrong with the word "marketing" per >> say, but it connotes Sun corporate control and money, and that's most >> certainly not what I'm after and it's not what any of the Sun >> OpenSolaris marketing people want either. So, to avoid the confusion, we >> ought to consider a new name that we all agree on. > > We're certainly in agreement, but I'm not sure what to call it. I see it as a > reach-out type program, maybe someone can think of a better word that has > better meaning. Yah, I have no clue what to call it either. See you at J1 .... Jim From Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM Wed Apr 4 08:26:50 2007 From: Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM (Bruno F. Souza) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:26:50 -0300 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4613ACA7.20309@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <200704032238.26870.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> <46134927.3080803@Sun.COM> <200704040239.04367.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> <4613ACA7.20309@sun.com> Message-ID: <1173B354-8713-4D22-B102-0440EB5F01BA@Sun.COM> On 04/04/2007, at 10:48, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > > Alan DuBoff wrote: >> On Tuesday 03 April 2007 11:43 pm, Jim Grisanzio wrote: >>> Sometimes consolidation can strengthen both sides. >> Sure, and other times it drives them apart. >>> Also, I'm not talking about Sun corporate marketing here. Sure, >>> if Sun >>> marketing people want to get involved in the community, they are >>> more >>> than welcome -- but they have to earn their way just like >>> everyone else. >> I hope you drop the marketing label, as a name. I don't think it >> represents what a community is, and something like community- >> reachout, or similar might be a better way to refer to that. > > There are a few separated concepts here: - User Groups: each UG is a separated community! Because of that, the UG community should be targeted for helping people starting UGs and maintaining UGs, because the UGs themselves are not interesting to the larger community. What they do (and they community they serve) is what a developer will care about, not the discussion on how to run the UG. This is something just a few will care about. Also, the only way to UGs to be efficient on the long run is if they are independently run by motivated people, and that they can form their own communities. It is important that they can be independent, that they don't depend on a single company, because it is clear that Sun cannot support all UGs around the world, so, if they depend on Sun, most of them will be disappointed at some point. We can debate if by being a OpenSolaris UG this ties them to Sun or not, that's another issue that I won't go in right now. But the independence factor is important: UGs are strong and effective when they are long lived. They don't get to be long lived if they aren't independent. Because of that, the UG community focus should be to support UGs, not support OpenSolaris adoption (there is a subtle but important difference here). - "Evangelism": this is a larger them UGs concept. This involves a lot of aspects, from Sun adoption efforts to community generated content, to UGs doing technical talks, etc. Evangelism is not a community either, and as UGs, most developers are not interested in Evangelism per si: they care for the results (the talks, the articles, the events). So, evangelism is one of the efforts UGs (among others) can do to build a community. UGs do that to expand their local communities and to serve the needs of local developers. Sun does this to create its own community, and to serve the needs of it. Also, keep in mind that one of the main reasons UGs are successful is that they provide the local information (in the local language, targeted for local needs), that Sun is usually not able to provide, so, these evangelism are not necessarily a joint effort: more likely then not, they are parallel activities with similar objectives - Marketing: I'll not try to define marketing here, but from what I see, this is really not a community either... IMHO, these are efforts to direct some existing, always limited, budget to create a community (of users, or buyers, of fans) around a product. In the open source arena, marketing can do a tiered approach, that is instead of investing to reach the end user, invest in empowering the community, that will then reach the end user. Marketing can have great results in fuelling the UGs, and provide evangelism material, content and support. If marketing will also focus on the end developer, that is fine too, but it is my opinion that nothing beats in terms of investment/results investing in building a strong, independent community. Now, to be fair, UGs take a long time to be effective, so, there needs to be a marketing effort that is independent from UGs support right now. And, in my experience users will come to a "learn OpenSolaris" site, and find UGs in their area they are interested in joining. But most developers don't care about UGs issues like starting a UG, organizing events and technical meetings, etc. Most developers also don't care to write articles, or to create marketing or evangelism material. So, with all of that, a few things that I imagine: - although lots of the people are the same, I expect that most of the discussions are separated, so, we should expect to have separated mailing lists for example. - all the initiatives done will need to have its own "developer focused" area, that is easy to see on the site, because the discussions happening inside these communities are not of interest to most developers, just the results. So, developers will want to know where there is a forum they can discuss OpenSolaris in Chinese or where can they get a Getting Started article. But they will not care about discussing how to start a Chinese-speaking UG that can host the forum, nor the discussions on who should write and how to promote the Getting started article. I think we can have a "single" community, but that focus on several objectives. But my main worry is that because the Marketing community objectives are more focused on promoting OpenSolaris, I would not want that we forget that the UG community focus is to promote stronger UGs, not really to promote the adoption of OpenSolaris (to promote is the focus of the UGs themselves, not the UG Community). So, for me, the relationship between the two communities are on the results and the activities, not on the building or organization of the communities themselves... Tks, Bruno. ______________________________________________________________________ Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe From Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM Wed Apr 4 15:12:23 2007 From: Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM (Bruno F. Souza) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 19:12:23 -0300 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On 04/04/2007, at 17:08, Peter Tribble wrote: > > What I think is flawed with the current structure is the idea that > there's > a "user group community" and that user groups live under that > community. > I think that's wrong. User groups are, well, user groups and ought > to be > first-class citizens in their own right, alongside communities and not > placed underneath. > > Certainly under my understanding of the constitution user groups > themselves > should be completely divorced from communities. I don't see LOSUG, for > example, as a natural outcome of the the UG community being > directed by > the OGB to go do focussed management and accomplishment of objectives. > A User Group community is a place for User Group _leaders_ (not members) to discuss how to run their UG. This has worked very well in other settings, but it needs to be clear that this is not a community that interests many other developers. The Java User Groups (JUG) Community, in java.net, hosts today almost 200 JUGs, with more then 300.000 developers as members, but only around 130 JUG leaders are discussing in the community itself. Next two weeks I will be running nearly 30 JUG events in Brazil, all organized by JUGs that are collaborating because they are members of the JUGs Community. UG collaboration is very powerful. > With that in mind, what is the role of the user group community? > It's not > managing user groups, but it can offer support - materials, suupport, > infrastructure. And there is overlap with what might be called > marketing. So, > in that context, merging it with the marketing community to form an > outreach community would make sense. > This is what I was afraid of, that by merging the two, the UG community would be simply an appendage of the Mkt community. If the UG community is not independent, then UG will simply consider that it is (another) Sun program that does not work. Been there, done that. Bruno. > -- > -Peter Tribble > http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-mktg mailing list > opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org Bruno. ______________________________________________________________________ Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe From flash at systemnews.com Wed Apr 4 15:23:13 2007 From: flash at systemnews.com (John J. McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:23:13 -0400 Subject: [ug-discuss] User Groups: "OpenSolaris" or "OpenSoftware"? Message-ID: <46142551.2070507@systemnews.com> Should the local user groups be focused on just OpenSolaris or should the scope be more inclusive and address Open Source software more broadly? OpenSolaris is interesting but [OpenSolaris + Open Office] or [OpenSolaris + PostgreSQL] can address the interests of a broader range of people - from desktop user to server user, from personal user to IT professional. In the end, a broader audience of OpenSource software users for FOSS than run wells on Solaris can drive more adoption of OpenSolaris. People don't select Linux.; they select GNU/Linux as part of a LAMP solution! Let's make Windows and Linux GNU/AMP users fell welcome to that they select OpenSolaris next time! I propose that the rich set of compiled FOSS for OpenSolaris at Blastwave.org make the case that pushing FOSS that works with OpenSolaris is *the* way to make OpenSolaris much more successful! I am planning to discuss this issue at the next three Florida Open S* User Groups in Florida (Ft. Lauderdale April 16., Tampa 17, Orlando 18). I'd be interested in your comments. -johnj -- John J. McLaughlin, Editor-in-Chief/CTO, System News Inc. Publishers of "SunFlash", "System News for Sun Users" and "System News for Sun Partners" http://sun.systemnews.com flash at systemnews.com (954) 234 8990 Blog: http://johnjmclaughlin.blogspot.com LinkedIn: http//www.linkedin.com/in/johnjmclaughln From kaiwai.gardiner at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 17:25:18 2007 From: kaiwai.gardiner at gmail.com (Kaiwai Gardiner) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:25:18 +1200 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <46135569.2050400@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <46135569.2050400@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On 04/04/07, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > > > Kaiwai Gardiner wrote On 04/03/07 14:31,: > > Hi, > > > > For me, I don't think the two should merge as both groups have different > > goals; Marketing is setup to evangelise OpenSolaris and its respective > > technologies to the rest of the 'industry' (used int he most loosest of > > terms) and to develop dialogue with the user community, which hopefully > > can then be relayed to the programmers and those who do the design, > > analysis and implementation - call us the intemediary between the users > > and the worker bee's. > > > > What I do propose, however, is for the two to have a closer working > > relationship, as dialogue between the marketing and user group(s) is > > necessary for the 'worker bee's' to know what customers want, who > > current sit outside the Sun 'customer list' - the end users *could* pass > > long requests directly, but the better way would be for us to > > consolidate the issues into one voice so that there is a consist voice > > with a matrix of issues that concern them. > > > I agree that the two need a closer working relationship, which is why > I'm suggesting that they live within one community. Now, that new > community will have many parts -- user groups, presentations, > video/audio, screen-casts, contests, t-shirts, web buttons, advertising, > marketing, branding campaigns, PR activities, profiles, Patrick's > metrics, other forms of technical and non-technical content > (newsletters, etc), conferences & events, etc. Try to think of it > *without* the word "marketing" in mind, but simply the general > evangelization (as Steve suggested) of OpenSolaris. Think of how strong > that new group could be. Also, under the new Constitution, each > Community Group will interact with the OGB. Wouldn't the interests of > the UG and Marketing communities be better served under one combined > voice since so many of their issues overlap? Ultimately, however, the goals of the two organisations are different; on one side you have users who simply want to communicate their pleasure/displeasure/concern and so forth with OpenSolaris and want to have nothing to do with the marketing side of the equation. The problem is pretty much, where doesn't marketing sit in the grand scheme of things? in regards to Sun, for example, if Sun does marketing, what is the OpenSolaris marketing for? if Sun's marketing the 'subscription and support packages' what is our aim? Which brings a bigger question - does OpenSolaris need a home grown community distribution along the lines of Fedora or OpenSuSE given the current dearth of a distribution community? the current OpenSolaris Express CE respins are nice, but for those who aren't familar with OpenSolaris, the idea of downloading something that changes every 2 weeks can be a daunting experience - if there is a release, must I upgrade it? where does it leave me if I stay? which is why I bought up the idea of a community based respository where by releases can be made available not only in iso form, but 'apt-get' respository like form as to allow those who are unfamilar to remain 'up to date' without a constant cycle of re-install and disruption that goes with the territory. Within the community itself there needs to be a greater accomodation of those who new and possibly decenting voices; if there is an issue being raised about a particular issue, and it is being addressed, make sure that the information is on the respective website - the first key to marketing is effective communication; if people don't know what is happening in your (in a generic term) community, then can you blame them for whining on osnews.comor some other outlet about the perceived deficiences and lack of action to correct them through using the communication channels which are available? So before anything is started in the way of 'evanglisation' - all community leaders need to start communicating effectively what is happening in their piece of turf. Trawling through miles of mailing lists discussions isn't effective - there needs to be a one stop point list: "This what we're on about here, this is what we're currently focused on, this is what we are going to be addressing in the near future, and here are some pie in the sky ideas which are floating around" - then with each one, explain, if you're 1/2 through developing a driver for particular widget but need greater testing, then do so, if you're having problem understanding how a driver works which you have ported from another operating system, put it up there, someone from that community might be able to help having experienced the same issue. Communication! Communication! Communication! Communication! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kaiwai.gardiner at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 18:46:57 2007 From: kaiwai.gardiner at gmail.com (Kaiwai Gardiner) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:46:57 +1200 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <46135569.2050400@Sun.COM> Message-ID: > > > Which brings a bigger question - does OpenSolaris need a home grown > > community distribution along the lines of Fedora or OpenSuSE given the > > current dearth of a distribution community? the current OpenSolaris > Express > > If there's to be a homegrown distribution, it should be just that, > homegrown. A community needs to step up and do it, if Sun does it, it > really isn't "homegrown." Sun needs to set it up, then gradually hand it over to a 'maintainance' community who will keep the packages up to date, akin to the package maintainers you seen in the FreeBSD ports tree, for example. > CE respins are nice, but for those who aren't familar with OpenSolaris, > the > > idea of downloading something that changes every 2 weeks can be a > daunting > > experience - if there is a release, must I upgrade it? where does it > leave > > That's what Solaris Developer Express is for. It's updated quarterly, > not every two weeks. True, but it doesn't address the issue of security updates, for example. > me if I stay? which is why I bought up the idea of a community based > > respository where by releases can be made available not only in iso > form, > > but 'apt-get' respository like form as to allow those who are unfamilar > to > > remain 'up to date' without a constant cycle of re-install and > disruption > > that goes with the territory. > > The whole update thing has been brought up before by others. Doing it > should be a community project though. I don't think anyone should > expect Sun to do it given the costs involved. There are of course many > issues to overcome, including redistribution and licensing rights to > some of the materials included in Solaris Express, as well as possible > technological hurdles. > > I don't think the average Solaris developer will be interested in a > version of Solaris that is akin to break-my-gentoo ;) > > I think the main point is that if this issue is to be addressed, the > community needs to address it. There is no excuse for them not to, > after all, Sun has already spent millions (very likely) on this > project (beginning from its inception); its only fair the community > gives back something. Sun doesn't need to maintain it for the long term, but to alteast setup a server, get that new boffin thats just been hired to get an apt-get srv5 pkg thing going. Maintain it and gradually hand over control to the community; have mentors in Sun to train up those in the community in how to create packages, as they do in the FreeBSD community with new ports maintainers. Setup a process, a testing, unstable and stable when it comes to updating packages; if it is a security update, it is fast tracked from unstable to stable; if it is a 'update' - libxml has been updated by x.x.1 then the transition may need to be slower. Matthew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.tribble at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 13:08:58 2007 From: peter.tribble at gmail.com (Peter Tribble) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 21:08:58 +0100 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On 4/3/07, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > Hello ... > > I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User > Group Community: > > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ ... > So, any thoughts pro or con? I'm sort of split, and if that's all that happens I'm against it. What I think is flawed with the current structure is the idea that there's a "user group community" and that user groups live under that community. I think that's wrong. User groups are, well, user groups and ought to be first-class citizens in their own right, alongside communities and not placed underneath. Certainly under my understanding of the constitution user groups themselves should be completely divorced from communities. I don't see LOSUG, for example, as a natural outcome of the the UG community being directed by the OGB to go do focussed management and accomplishment of objectives. With that in mind, what is the role of the user group community? It's not managing user groups, but it can offer support - materials, suupport, infrastructure. And there is overlap with what might be called marketing. So, in that context, merging it with the marketing community to form an outreach community would make sense. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ From binarycrusader at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 18:07:12 2007 From: binarycrusader at gmail.com (Shawn Walker) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:07:12 -0500 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <46135569.2050400@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On 04/04/07, Kaiwai Gardiner wrote: > On 04/04/07, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > Kaiwai Gardiner wrote On 04/03/07 14:31,: > > > Hi, > > > > > > For me, I don't think the two should merge as both groups have different > > > goals; Marketing is setup to evangelise OpenSolaris and its respective > > > technologies to the rest of the 'industry' (used int he most loosest of > > > terms) and to develop dialogue with the user community, which hopefully > > > can then be relayed to the programmers and those who do the design, > > > analysis and implementation - call us the intemediary between the users > > > and the worker bee's. > > > > > > What I do propose, however, is for the two to have a closer working > > > relationship, as dialogue between the marketing and user group(s) is > > > necessary for the 'worker bee's' to know what customers want, who > > > current sit outside the Sun 'customer list' - the end users *could* pass > > > long requests directly, but the better way would be for us to > > > consolidate the issues into one voice so that there is a consist voice > > > with a matrix of issues that concern them. > > > > > > I agree that the two need a closer working relationship, which is why > > I'm suggesting that they live within one community. Now, that new > > community will have many parts -- user groups, presentations, > > video/audio, screen-casts, contests, t-shirts, web buttons, advertising, > > marketing, branding campaigns, PR activities, profiles, Patrick's > > metrics, other forms of technical and non-technical content > > (newsletters, etc), conferences & events, etc. Try to think of it > > *without* the word "marketing" in mind, but simply the general > > evangelization (as Steve suggested) of OpenSolaris. Think of how strong > > that new group could be. Also, under the new Constitution, each > > Community Group will interact with the OGB. Wouldn't the interests of > > the UG and Marketing communities be better served under one combined > > voice since so many of their issues overlap? > Which brings a bigger question - does OpenSolaris need a home grown > community distribution along the lines of Fedora or OpenSuSE given the > current dearth of a distribution community? the current OpenSolaris Express If there's to be a homegrown distribution, it should be just that, homegrown. A community needs to step up and do it, if Sun does it, it really isn't "homegrown." > CE respins are nice, but for those who aren't familar with OpenSolaris, the > idea of downloading something that changes every 2 weeks can be a daunting > experience - if there is a release, must I upgrade it? where does it leave That's what Solaris Developer Express is for. It's updated quarterly, not every two weeks. > me if I stay? which is why I bought up the idea of a community based > respository where by releases can be made available not only in iso form, > but 'apt-get' respository like form as to allow those who are unfamilar to > remain 'up to date' without a constant cycle of re-install and disruption > that goes with the territory. The whole update thing has been brought up before by others. Doing it should be a community project though. I don't think anyone should expect Sun to do it given the costs involved. There are of course many issues to overcome, including redistribution and licensing rights to some of the materials included in Solaris Express, as well as possible technological hurdles. I don't think the average Solaris developer will be interested in a version of Solaris that is akin to break-my-gentoo ;) I think the main point is that if this issue is to be addressed, the community needs to address it. There is no excuse for them not to, after all, Sun has already spent millions (very likely) on this project (beginning from its inception); its only fair the community gives back something. > piece of turf. Trawling through miles of mailing lists discussions isn't > effective - there needs to be a one stop point list: "This what we're on > about here, this is what we're currently focused on, this is what we are > going to be addressing in the near future, and here are some pie in the sky > ideas which are floating around" - then with each one, explain, if you're > 1/2 through developing a driver for particular widget but need greater > testing, then do so, if you're having problem understanding how a driver > works which you have ported from another operating system, put it up there, > someone from that community might be able to help having experienced the > same issue. You're "preaching to the choir" here I think. That's why the community pages exist, why the mailing lists exist and so on. Many of the resources on OpenSolaris.org are geared towards that one goal: communication. However, you can't make folks use them. It is up to each community to be responsible and *communicate* :) Most of these issues you're discussing are something that the OGB will be dealing with (I'm certain) as they look at community structure and organisation and how to encourage growth and development. -- "Less is only more where more is no good." --Frank Lloyd Wright Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst binarycrusader at gmail.com - http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ From binarycrusader at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 19:12:56 2007 From: binarycrusader at gmail.com (Shawn Walker) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 21:12:56 -0500 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <46135569.2050400@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On 04/04/07, Kaiwai Gardiner wrote: > > > Which brings a bigger question - does OpenSolaris need a home grown > > > community distribution along the lines of Fedora or OpenSuSE given the > > > current dearth of a distribution community? the current OpenSolaris > Express > > > > If there's to be a homegrown distribution, it should be just that, > > homegrown. A community needs to step up and do it, if Sun does it, it > > really isn't "homegrown." > > > Sun needs to set it up, then gradually hand it over to a 'maintainance' > community who will keep the packages up to date, akin to the package > maintainers you seen in the FreeBSD ports tree, for example. Why does Sun need to do it? There is literally a mountain of documentation over at docs.sun.com which is probably enough to tell people how to do most of what they need to. > > > CE respins are nice, but for those who aren't familar with OpenSolaris, > the > > > idea of downloading something that changes every 2 weeks can be a > daunting > > > experience - if there is a release, must I upgrade it? where does it > leave > > > > That's what Solaris Developer Express is for. It's updated quarterly, > > not every two weeks. > > > True, but it doesn't address the issue of security updates, for example. Yes, that is a sore spot that I think should be addressed, but I know the community can address that issue if they want to. It would require building patches which is a well documented process. > > > me if I stay? which is why I bought up the idea of a community based > > > respository where by releases can be made available not only in iso > form, > > > but 'apt-get' respository like form as to allow those who are unfamilar > to > > > remain 'up to date' without a constant cycle of re-install and > disruption > > > that goes with the territory. > > > > The whole update thing has been brought up before by others. Doing it > > should be a community project though. I don't think anyone should > > expect Sun to do it given the costs involved. There are of course many > > issues to overcome, including redistribution and licensing rights to > > some of the materials included in Solaris Express, as well as possible > > technological hurdles. > > > > I don't think the average Solaris developer will be interested in a > > version of Solaris that is akin to break-my-gentoo ;) > > > > I think the main point is that if this issue is to be addressed, the > > community needs to address it. There is no excuse for them not to, > > after all, Sun has already spent millions (very likely) on this > > project (beginning from its inception); its only fair the community > > gives back something. > > > > Sun doesn't need to maintain it for the long term, but to alteast setup a > server, get that new boffin thats just been hired to get an apt-get srv5 pkg > thing going. Maintain it and gradually hand over control to the community; > have mentors in Sun to train up those in the community in how to create > packages, as they do in the FreeBSD community with new ports maintainers. I don't know why you are obsessing over an "apt-get" thing. It doesn't have to be apt-get, it could be pkg-get or any other tool for that matter. I think more general terms would be helpful rather than implying you want some "debian" thing. As far as "mentors" for creating packages. I sincerely doubt that is necessary. Creating packages and patches on Solaris is an extremely well documented process (unlike on other unnamed operating systems). Heck, you can create packages pretty easily using http://pkgbuild.sourceforge.net/ like the desktop community, or you can even use Philip Brown's wonderful "gnutopkg" script here: http://www.bolthole.com/solaris/gnutopkg. I even have an improved version of it here: http://icculus.org/~eviltypeguy/pkg/ along with several sample Solaris packages. > Setup a process, a testing, unstable and stable when it comes to updating > packages; if it is a security update, it is fast tracked from unstable to > stable; if it is a 'update' - libxml has been updated by x.x.1 then the > transition may need to be slower. > > Matthew All of this process is already defined. If you read through the documentation, you'll find almost all of it is already there. Release taxonomies, Solaris engineering principles, package building, patch creation, the whole works! Most of it is on docs.sun.com, the other portion is on opensolaris.org. Really, someone with the time and motivation could easily get a project running fairly easily. Doing it for Solaris Express may not be legally practical at the moment, but doing it for a "homegrown" distribution would certainly be... -- "Less is only more where more is no good." --Frank Lloyd Wright Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst binarycrusader at gmail.com - http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Thu Apr 5 16:13:36 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:13:36 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> Peter Tribble wrote On 04/05/07 05:08,: > On 4/3/07, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > >> Hello ... >> >> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User >> Group Community: >> >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/marketing/ >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ > > ... > >> So, any thoughts pro or con? > > > I'm sort of split, and if that's all that happens I'm against it. > > What I think is flawed with the current structure is the idea that there's > a "user group community" and that user groups live under that community. > I think that's wrong. User groups are, well, user groups and ought to be > first-class citizens in their own right, alongside communities and not > placed underneath. Hi, Peter ... So, are you saying that each user group would be a full community like the other 40 or so communities we have now? If so, then they'd all have to get OGB approval. > Certainly under my understanding of the constitution user groups themselves > should be completely divorced from communities. I don't see LOSUG, for > example, as a natural outcome of the the UG community being directed by > the OGB to go do focused management and accomplishment of objectives. The only reason UGs are all under a single meta-UG community is that there was no other place to put them on the site. There's nothing to say that we need any user groups on the site at all, actually. And UGs can use Google/Yahoo lists as well so they are completely independent of the OpenSolaris site. I'm perfectly happy for that to be the case and have never viewed all the activity in the OpenSolaris community to necessarily have to take place on opensolairs.org. If we don't put them in a meta-community, though, then we don't really have a place for them under the current site structure. I know that people want a wiki feature on the site and that's being specified right now, so maybe individual UGs can take a wiki page someplace and we can remove the UG community altogether. That's certainly an option as well. But I agree: the current set up can't scale at all. Jim > With that in mind, what is the role of the user group community? It's not > managing user groups, but it can offer support - materials, suupport, > infrastructure. And there is overlap with what might be called > marketing. So, > in that context, merging it with the marketing community to form an > outreach community would make sense. > From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Thu Apr 5 16:16:59 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:16:59 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <46135569.2050400@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4615836B.8020007@Sun.COM> Kaiwai Gardiner wrote On 04/05/07 09:25,: > Ultimately, however, the goals of the two organizations are different; > on one side you have users who simply want to communicate their > pleasure/displeasure/concern and so forth with OpenSolaris and want to > have nothing to do with the marketing side of the equation. Hello, Kaiwai ... I would argue that "community" marketing is very much the process of communicating "pleasure/displeasure/concern," etc. Community marketing (for lack of a better term, I guess) is based on open conversations and direct engagement, whereas corporate marketing has been traditionally based largely on delivering messages into markets from the outside with very little participation involved. The marketing community on OpenSolaris is not about delivering messages; it's about creating a community effort based on open participation in community issues to spread the word about OpenSolaris. In this discussion, I've been advocating dropping the word "marketing" because it's obvious that it gets in the way. I also see UGs as being directly related since they produce content, they evangelize OpenSolaris, they talk openly on lists, they hold meetings, etc. They, quite literally, create something from nothing and they do it largely based on their own initiatives. > The problem is pretty much, where doesn't marketing sit in the grand > scheme of things? in regards to Sun, for example, if Sun does marketing, > what is the OpenSolaris marketing for? if Sun's marketing the > 'subscription and support packages' what is our aim? Sun has formal marketing programs for products and services and occasionally pitches in to help promote OpenSolaris. Sun spends millions on the effort, too, with all sorts of global programs. However, Sun does not do a lot of grass-roots activities around OpenSolaris. That's just not what big companies do for the most part. Sun, however, has given us a site, some code, and some tools and from that we can create our own stuff. That's what I'm trying to say. Forget Sun in this conversation and forget the word "marketing." Let's just talk about how the OpenSolaris /community/ gets the word out about the OpenSolaris and how we as a community engage each other. We go to conferences. We talk on lists. We design t-shirts. We build distros. We hack code. We form user groups. We do press interviews. Etc. How do we take all those activities and quantify them a bit more? How do we engage new people? How do we make it easier for people to get involved? Jim From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Thu Apr 5 16:42:00 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:42:00 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <46158948.4010302@Sun.COM> Bruno F. Souza wrote On 04/05/07 07:12,: > > On 04/04/2007, at 17:08, Peter Tribble wrote: > >> >> What I think is flawed with the current structure is the idea that >> there's >> a "user group community" and that user groups live under that community. >> I think that's wrong. User groups are, well, user groups and ought to be >> first-class citizens in their own right, alongside communities and not >> placed underneath. >> >> Certainly under my understanding of the constitution user groups >> themselves >> should be completely divorced from communities. I don't see LOSUG, for >> example, as a natural outcome of the the UG community being directed by >> the OGB to go do focussed management and accomplishment of objectives. >> > > A User Group community is a place for User Group _leaders_ (not > members) to discuss how to run their UG. Absolutely true. But there's a little 'but' in there, too. Each user group has their own list but I had wanted ug-discuss to be the meta list so that members of all user groups could potentially talk to each other easily to share ideas, stories, materials, etc as well. > This has worked very well in other settings, but it needs to be clear > that this is not a community that interests many other developers. > The Java User Groups (JUG) Community, in java.net, hosts today almost > 200 JUGs, with more then 300.000 developers as members, but only around > 130 JUG leaders are discussing in the community itself. That's interesting. Ok, so we are not that out of the ordinary, then. If only the leaders communicate across lists on ug-discuss, I think that's fine, too. > Next two weeks I will be running nearly 30 JUG events in Brazil, all > organized by JUGs that are collaborating because they are members of > the JUGs Community. UG collaboration is very powerful. > >> With that in mind, what is the role of the user group community? It's >> not >> managing user groups, but it can offer support - materials, support, >> infrastructure. And there is overlap with what might be called >> marketing. So, >> in that context, merging it with the marketing community to form an >> outreach community would make sense. >> > > This is what I was afraid of, that by merging the two, the UG community > would be simply an appendage of the Mkt community. If the UG community > is not independent, then UG will simply consider that it is (another) > Sun program that does not work. Been there, done that. I'm not sure why this has to be the case. The term "Marketing Community" will go away and the term "UG Community" will go away and both will be replaced by a new name (which we now have two proposals). No one will be an appendage of anyone. And, potentially, that new community could be much better represented under the Constitution, since it will be bigger, more focused, and more active and probably better able to create an environment where general users can participate in OpenSolaris. The leaders would have to implement that, though, and I'm coming to believe that there is little interest for that at this time. Also, the UG Community (the meta community, I mean) is as independent -- or not -- as any community on OpenSolaris and is governed by the OpenSolaris Constitution, not Sun. I'm not sure why there is a concern about "Sun" in this case. Sun has very little interest or control in the matter currently. There simply is no UG program -- it's a mail list and a page on the site. Since the UG Community structure is clearly broken (as a result of its success under a somewhat limited site structure not designed for how we have implemented the community), I think we ought to explore if the upcoming wiki space would be a better solution for making that one community more visible and easier for people to use. That will solve one problem right there. Jim From sch at sun.com Thu Apr 5 19:43:25 2007 From: sch at sun.com (Stephen Hahn) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 19:43:25 -0700 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> * Jim Grisanzio [2007-04-05 16:13]: > If we don't put them in a meta-community, though, then we don't really > have a place for them under the current site structure. I know that > people want a wiki feature on the site and that's being specified > right now, so maybe individual UGs can take a wiki page someplace and > we can remove the UG community altogether. That's certainly an option > as well. But I agree: the current set up can't scale at all. *cough* Projects *cough* My name suggestion (really Simon's from a year ago or so): Advocates. - Stephen -- sch at sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From kaiwai.gardiner at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 20:36:36 2007 From: kaiwai.gardiner at gmail.com (Kaiwai Gardiner) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 15:36:36 +1200 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4615836B.8020007@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <46135569.2050400@Sun.COM> <4615836B.8020007@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On 06/04/07, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > > Kaiwai Gardiner wrote On 04/05/07 09:25,: > > > Ultimately, however, the goals of the two organizations are different; > > on one side you have users who simply want to communicate their > > pleasure/displeasure/concern and so forth with OpenSolaris and want to > > have nothing to do with the marketing side of the equation. > > Hello, Kaiwai ... > > I would argue that "community" marketing is very much the process of > communicating "pleasure/displeasure/concern," etc. Community marketing > (for lack of a better term, I guess) is based on open conversations and > direct engagement, whereas corporate marketing has been traditionally > based largely on delivering messages into markets from the outside with > very little participation involved. The marketing community on > OpenSolaris is not about delivering messages; it's about creating a > community effort based on open participation in community issues to > spread the word about OpenSolaris. In this discussion, I've been > advocating dropping the word "marketing" because it's obvious that it > gets in the way. I also see UGs as being directly related since they > produce content, they evangelize OpenSolaris, they talk openly on lists, > they hold meetings, etc. They, quite literally, create something from > nothing and they do it largely based on their own initiatives. Ah, if it is done that way, then sure; the way I saw 'user groups' was along the lines of 'technical support' discussion list; as long as the marketing list doesn't end up getting unindated by requests for technical support, it should be all good. The community could be called 'non-Technical' which embraced a general discussion list, marketing discussion and technical support discussion. > The problem is pretty much, where doesn't marketing sit in the grand > > scheme of things? in regards to Sun, for example, if Sun does marketing, > > what is the OpenSolaris marketing for? if Sun's marketing the > > 'subscription and support packages' what is our aim? > > Sun has formal marketing programs for products and services and > occasionally pitches in to help promote OpenSolaris. Sun spends millions > on the effort, too, with all sorts of global programs. However, Sun does > not do a lot of grass-roots activities around OpenSolaris. That's just > not what big companies do for the most part. Sun, however, has given us > a site, some code, and some tools and from that we can create our own > stuff. That's what I'm trying to say. Forget Sun in this conversation > and forget the word "marketing." Let's just talk about how the > OpenSolaris /community/ gets the word out about the OpenSolaris and how > we as a community engage each other. We go to conferences. We talk on > lists. We design t-shirts. We build distros. We hack code. We form user > groups. We do press interviews. Etc. How do we take all those activities > and quantify them a bit more? How do we engage new people? How do we > make it easier for people to get involved? So the correct way of seeing it would be that Sun marketing is a member of the marketing community where by they contribute to the marketing of OpenSolaris as well as marketing their own services and products. As for grass root 'activities' the problem with leaving up to a large business is this; its like leaving something up to a government department to manage - and we all know successful they are at doing something :-) Getting back to a grass roots, my pet project will be on the hardware support documentation for first time installers then I'll worry about other things later :-) Matthew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Thu Apr 5 20:40:10 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:40:10 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> Stephen Hahn wrote On 04/06/07 11:43,: > * Jim Grisanzio [2007-04-05 16:13]: > >>If we don't put them in a meta-community, though, then we don't really >>have a place for them under the current site structure. I know that >>people want a wiki feature on the site and that's being specified >>right now, so maybe individual UGs can take a wiki page someplace and >>we can remove the UG community altogether. That's certainly an option >>as well. But I agree: the current set up can't scale at all. > > > *cough* Projects *cough* > > My name suggestion (really Simon's from a year ago or so): Advocates. > > - Stephen Oh, cool, I like that. Ok. :) I'm an idiot. And we can do that right now without any merger or need to propose new site changes, and it solves the immediate structural problem with the UG community. UGs can still have their own spaces/lists and still communicate across groups via ug-discuss. Each existing user group becomes a project, and new user groups can go through the same project proposal process currently in place. I like Advocates, too. We now have three possible names: Advocates, Evangelism, Outreach. I see little consensus for a merger, but if we can solve the structural problem with the UG community that would go a long way to making that community more effective. I say we do it. Other comments? Jim From stevel at sun.com Thu Apr 5 21:16:16 2007 From: stevel at sun.com (Stephen Lau) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:16:16 -0700 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <20070406041616.GD731800@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 12:40:10PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > > Stephen Hahn wrote On 04/06/07 11:43,: > >* Jim Grisanzio [2007-04-05 16:13]: > > > >>If we don't put them in a meta-community, though, then we don't really > >>have a place for them under the current site structure. I know that > >>people want a wiki feature on the site and that's being specified > >>right now, so maybe individual UGs can take a wiki page someplace and > >>we can remove the UG community altogether. That's certainly an option > >>as well. But I agree: the current set up can't scale at all. > > > > > > *cough* Projects *cough* > > > > My name suggestion (really Simon's from a year ago or so): Advocates. > > > > - Stephen > > > > Oh, cool, I like that. Ok. :) I'm an idiot. > > And we can do that right now without any merger or need to propose new > site changes, and it solves the immediate structural problem with the UG > community. UGs can still have their own spaces/lists and still > communicate across groups via ug-discuss. Each existing user group > becomes a project, and new user groups can go through the same project > proposal process currently in place. > > I like Advocates, too. We now have three possible names: Advocates, > Evangelism, Outreach. I see little consensus for a merger, but if we can > solve the structural problem with the UG community that would go a long > way to making that community more effective. > > I say we do it. Other comments? I'm actually in favour of the merger, as long as the name changes to one of those 3. I like Advocates, but fear it overlaps with the terminology of CRT Advocates and RTI Advocates, etc. cheers, steve -- stephen lau // stevel at sun.com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net opensolaris // solaris kernel development From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Thu Apr 5 21:27:17 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 13:27:17 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <20070406041616.GD731800@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> <20070406041616.GD731800@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4615CC25.2040104@Sun.COM> Stephen Lau wrote On 04/06/07 13:16,: > On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 12:40:10PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > >> >>Stephen Hahn wrote On 04/06/07 11:43,: >> >>>* Jim Grisanzio [2007-04-05 16:13]: >>> >>> >>>>If we don't put them in a meta-community, though, then we don't really >>>>have a place for them under the current site structure. I know that >>>>people want a wiki feature on the site and that's being specified >>>>right now, so maybe individual UGs can take a wiki page someplace and >>>>we can remove the UG community altogether. That's certainly an option >>>>as well. But I agree: the current set up can't scale at all. >>> >>> >>> *cough* Projects *cough* >>> >>> My name suggestion (really Simon's from a year ago or so): Advocates. >>> >>> - Stephen >> >> >> >>Oh, cool, I like that. Ok. :) I'm an idiot. >> >>And we can do that right now without any merger or need to propose new >>site changes, and it solves the immediate structural problem with the UG >>community. UGs can still have their own spaces/lists and still >>communicate across groups via ug-discuss. Each existing user group >>becomes a project, and new user groups can go through the same project >>proposal process currently in place. >> >>I like Advocates, too. We now have three possible names: Advocates, >>Evangelism, Outreach. I see little consensus for a merger, but if we can >>solve the structural problem with the UG community that would go a long >>way to making that community more effective. >> >>I say we do it. Other comments? > > > I'm actually in favour of the merger, as long as the name changes to one > of those 3. I like Advocates, but fear it overlaps with the terminology > of CRT Advocates and RTI Advocates, etc. And the notion of making user groups projects? Jim From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Thu Apr 5 21:38:08 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 13:38:08 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <46135569.2050400@Sun.COM> <4615836B.8020007@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4615CEB0.8030405@Sun.COM> Kaiwai Gardiner wrote On 04/06/07 12:36,: > On 06/04/07, *Jim Grisanzio* > wrote: > > > Kaiwai Gardiner wrote On 04/05/07 09:25,: > > > Ultimately, however, the goals of the two organizations are > different; > > on one side you have users who simply want to communicate their > > pleasure/displeasure/concern and so forth with OpenSolaris and > want to > > have nothing to do with the marketing side of the equation. > > Hello, Kaiwai ... > > I would argue that "community" marketing is very much the process of > communicating "pleasure/displeasure/concern," etc. Community marketing > (for lack of a better term, I guess) is based on open conversations and > direct engagement, whereas corporate marketing has been traditionally > based largely on delivering messages into markets from the outside with > very little participation involved. The marketing community on > OpenSolaris is not about delivering messages; it's about creating a > community effort based on open participation in community issues to > spread the word about OpenSolaris. In this discussion, I've been > advocating dropping the word "marketing" because it's obvious that it > gets in the way. I also see UGs as being directly related since they > produce content, they evangelize OpenSolaris, they talk openly on lists, > they hold meetings, etc. They, quite literally, create something from > nothing and they do it largely based on their own initiatives. > > > Ah, if it is done that way, then sure; the way I saw 'user groups' was > along the lines of 'technical support' discussion list; as long as the > marketing list doesn't end up getting unindated by requests for > technical support, it should be all good Well, under my merger theory, the "marketing" list goes away and becomes re-named to whatever we decide is the new community would be named. That list would be merged with ug-discuss, so we'd have one meta list for Advocacy (or whatever it's called) and each individual UG keeps their own local lists, where they have local discussions as well as technical discussions. So ... opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org & ug-discuss at opensolaris.org are merged into xxx at opensolaris.org under the new xxx community. Each UG keeps its own list but becomes a project associated with the new xxx community. I'm fine to leave the merger idea sit for now but just clean up the UG community by making them projects. We'll see what other say. > The community could be called 'non-Technical' which embraced a general > discussion list, marketing discussion and technical support discussion. > > > The problem is pretty much, where doesn't marketing sit in the grand > > scheme of things? in regards to Sun, for example, if Sun does > marketing, > > what is the OpenSolaris marketing for? if Sun's marketing the > > 'subscription and support packages' what is our aim? > > Sun has formal marketing programs for products and services and > occasionally pitches in to help promote OpenSolaris. Sun spends > millions > on the effort, too, with all sorts of global programs. However, Sun does > not do a lot of grass-roots activities around OpenSolaris. That's just > not what big companies do for the most part. Sun, however, has given us > a site, some code, and some tools and from that we can create our own > stuff. That's what I'm trying to say. Forget Sun in this conversation > and forget the word "marketing." Let's just talk about how the > OpenSolaris /community/ gets the word out about the OpenSolaris and how > we as a community engage each other. We go to conferences. We talk on > lists. We design t-shirts. We build distros. We hack code. We form user > groups. We do press interviews. Etc. How do we take all those activities > and quantify them a bit more? How do we engage new people? How do we > make it easier for people to get involved? > > > So the correct way of seeing it would be that Sun marketing is a member > of the marketing community where by they contribute to the marketing of > OpenSolaris as well as marketing their own services and products. Yes, pretty much. Those who have community activities participate; those who don't stay internal and work on Sun-specific issues. > As for grass root 'activities' the problem with leaving up to a large > business is this; its like leaving something up to a government > department to manage - and we all know successful they are at doing > something :-) > > Getting back to a grass roots, my pet project will be on the hardware > support documentation for first time installers then I'll worry about > other things later :-) > > Matthew From Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com Fri Apr 6 00:06:28 2007 From: Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com (Alan DuBoff) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 00:06:28 -0700 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing =?iso-8859-1?q?& UGs?= In-Reply-To: <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <200704060006.28058.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> On Thursday 05 April 2007 07:43 pm, Stephen Hahn wrote: > * Jim Grisanzio [2007-04-05 16:13]: > > If we don't put them in a meta-community, though, then we don't really > > have a place for them under the current site structure. I know that > > people want a wiki feature on the site and that's being specified > > right now, so maybe individual UGs can take a wiki page someplace and > > we can remove the UG community altogether. That's certainly an option > > as well. But I agree: the current set up can't scale at all. > > *cough* Projects *cough* > > My name suggestion (really Simon's from a year ago or so): Advocates. That's a good suggestion. I like it. +1, or 2-, whatever we do... -- Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company! From Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com Fri Apr 6 00:12:46 2007 From: Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com (Alan DuBoff) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 00:12:46 -0700 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing =?iso-8859-1?q?& UGs?= In-Reply-To: <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <200704060012.46355.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> On Thursday 05 April 2007 08:40 pm, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > I like Advocates, too. We now have three possible names: Advocates, > Evangelism, Outreach. I like Stephen's suggestion best. Advocates is the best of all of them. -- Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company! From Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com Fri Apr 6 00:22:17 2007 From: Alan.DuBoff at Sun.Com (Alan DuBoff) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 00:22:17 -0700 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing =?iso-8859-1?q?& UGs?= In-Reply-To: <46158948.4010302@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <46158948.4010302@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <200704060022.17652.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> On Thursday 05 April 2007 04:42 pm, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > Absolutely true. But there's a little 'but' in there, too. Each user > group has their own list but I had wanted ug-discuss to be the meta list > so that members of all user groups could potentially talk to each other > easily to share ideas, stories, materials, etc as well. But if we form small communities within, we end up being divided, to some extent. I believe if we do that we encourage segregation, my 2 yen. > > This has worked very well in other settings, but it needs to be clear > > that this is not a community that interests many other developers. > > The Java User Groups (JUG) Community, in java.net, hosts today almost > > 200 JUGs, with more then 300.000 developers as members, but only around > > 130 JUG leaders are discussing in the community itself. > > That's interesting. Ok, so we are not that out of the ordinary, then. If > only the leaders communicate across lists on ug-discuss, I think that's > fine, too. I think these type of numbers are eluding, and I think the strength of a community is hard to put numbers to. I think 130 JUG leaders participating is good. We don't have nearly that many, I don't hear from most of the user group community, I wish they would be more vocal. > Since the UG Community structure is clearly broken (as a result of its > success under a somewhat limited site structure not designed for how we > have implemented the community), I think we ought to explore if the > upcoming wiki space would be a better solution for making that one > community more visible and easier for people to use. That will solve one > problem right there. That's a good idea, IMO. -- Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company! From Tim.Foster at Sun.COM Fri Apr 6 00:59:25 2007 From: Tim.Foster at Sun.COM (Tim Foster) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:59:25 +0100 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> hi Folks, Sorry for not chiming in till now. Jim Grisanzio wrote: > I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User > Group Community: I agree. I've always thought it'd be really nice if these groups could work more closely together - indeed, putting up the "talks & presentation" pages and the "how you can help opensolaris marketing" pages was definitely targeting both communities. As they put it in the Life Of Brian, "Brothers, we should be struggling together!" ;-) I also like the idea of each ug getting it's own project - if even for the nicer URLs it'll generate. One comment about a recent IEOSUG poster we did, was that http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ie-osug/iosug-9 doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Advocate seems like a nice name to me, though I think I prefer Ambassador[1] - it's a gentler term than Advocate, which like Evangelist suggests to me some sort of foaming-at-the-mouth zealot (though not nearly as strongly as Evangelist does) Ambassador would imply that we're a more diplomatic bunch than that. I'm easy about the name though - it's what we do that's important. cheers, tim [1] This might confuse some Sun-employees I admit. There are programmes inside Sun where sales engineers can become "OS Ambassadors", "Network Ambassadors", etc. potential confusion there if there's ever an Sun-internal "OpenSolaris Ambassador" programme. However, what those guys do, and what we do is virtually the same thing: http://blogs.sun.com/jimlaurent/entry/what_is_a_sun_os -- Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Solaris Engineering Ops http://blogs.sun.com/timf From peter.tribble at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 01:21:39 2007 From: peter.tribble at gmail.com (Peter Tribble) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:21:39 +0100 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On 4/6/07, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > So, are you saying that each user group would be a full community like > the other 40 or so communities we have now? If so, then they'd all have > to get OGB approval. No. They would be user groups. Think more like projects, as Stephen mentioned. Only they're not called projects. They're called user groups. And would have a separate listing and a separate entry in the site navigation. But a project is probably a good comparison. So a user group has known leaders, a mailing list if it wants it, a place on the website. No source code, though. > The only reason UGs are all under a single meta-UG community is that > there was no other place to put them on the site. Yes, we need to get away from the "everything is either a community or a project" idea. At which point it may be worth wondering if there are any other structural groupings required. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Fri Apr 6 01:34:34 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:34:34 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4616061A.90108@Sun.COM> Peter Tribble wrote On 04/06/07 17:21,: > On 4/6/07, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > >> So, are you saying that each user group would be a full community like >> the other 40 or so communities we have now? If so, then they'd all have >> to get OGB approval. > > > No. They would be user groups. Think more like projects, as Stephen > mentioned. Yep. I see that now and agree. > Only they're not called projects. They're called user groups. And would > have > a separate listing and a separate entry in the site navigation. But a > project is > probably a good comparison. So a user group has known leaders, a mailing > list if it wants it, a place on the website. No source code, though. > >> The only reason UGs are all under a single meta-UG community is that >> there was no other place to put them on the site. > > > Yes, we need to get away from the "everything is either a community or > a project" idea. At which point it may be worth wondering if there are > any other structural groupings required. From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Fri Apr 6 01:40:59 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:40:59 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> Message-ID: <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> hey, Tim ... Tim Foster wrote On 04/06/07 16:59,: > hi Folks, > > Sorry for not chiming in till now. > > Jim Grisanzio wrote: > >> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the User >> Group Community: > > > I agree. I've always thought it'd be really nice if these groups could > work more closely together - indeed, putting up the "talks & > presentation" pages and the "how you can help opensolaris marketing" > pages was definitely targeting both communities. > > As they put it in the Life Of Brian, "Brothers, we should be struggling > together!" ;-) > > I also like the idea of each ug getting it's own project - if even for > the nicer URLs it'll generate. One comment about a recent IEOSUG poster > we did, was that > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ie-osug/iosug-9 > doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Oh, come on, that's a perfectly lovely url. :) I agree, though, a project space will be an excellent solution to offer UGs and clean up site issues right now. > Advocate seems like a nice name to me, though I think I prefer > Ambassador[1] - it's a gentler term than Advocate, which like > Evangelist suggests to me some sort of foaming-at-the-mouth zealot > (though not nearly as strongly as Evangelist does) > > Ambassador would imply that we're a more diplomatic bunch than that. > Ok, cool, so the list grows: * Ambassador Community * Advocates Community * Evangelism Community or Evangelization Community * Outreach Community More candidates welcome ... Jim > I'm easy about the name though - it's what we do that's important. > > > cheers, > tim > > > [1] This might confuse some Sun-employees I admit. There are > programmes inside Sun where sales engineers can become > "OS Ambassadors", "Network Ambassadors", etc. potential > confusion there if there's ever an Sun-internal "OpenSolaris > Ambassador" programme. However, what those guys do, and what > we do is virtually the same thing: > http://blogs.sun.com/jimlaurent/entry/what_is_a_sun_os > From Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM Fri Apr 6 07:39:30 2007 From: Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM (Bruno F. Souza) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 11:39:30 -0300 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <5146CABB-D38E-486D-BA8E-11693790A35D@Sun.COM> On 06/04/2007, at 00:40, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > > Stephen Hahn wrote On 04/06/07 11:43,: >> >> *cough* Projects *cough* >> My name suggestion (really Simon's from a year ago or so): >> Advocates. >> - Stephen > > > > Oh, cool, I like that. Ok. :) I'm an idiot. > > And we can do that right now without any merger or need to propose > new site changes, and it solves the immediate structural problem > with the UG community. UGs can still have their own spaces/lists > and still communicate across groups via ug-discuss. Each existing > user group becomes a project, and new user groups can go through > the same project proposal process currently in place. > Ok, I'm an idiot too :-) I'm so used to the way we structured java.net Java User Groups, that I didn't notice it was being done different here... So, java.net has the same issue that we have here: the site infrastructure was created to host software projects, not really "communities". Let me describe the way we "solved" that for UG on java.net, this may be a good starting point for the UG community for OpenSolaris. - there is a JUGs Community: this is where JUG leaders join and discuss joint efforts. The JUGs Community has a few mailing lists that are targeted for JUG leaders to discuss things, and hosts very few content by itself. It is more like a discussion on how each leader can make his own group more effective by learning from others. - each JUG can request a project on java.net, that will go "under" the JUGs Community. The project hosts the JUG mailing lists, files, etc. Some JUGs even have _software_ projects, that are hosted as sub- projects of their JUG. One important thing is that in java.net project requests are not a "community wide" thing. So, JUGs request projects for the JGs Community, and that gets approved by JUG Community Leaders, that are elected by the JUG Leaders. So, when a JUG request a project, it can be approved right away (it is actually put under the incubator, and when JUGs comply with a few requirements, like creating a web page, etc they are "graduated" to become a project under the JUGs Community). It does not need to go trough any "community wide" approval or vote. - The JUGs Community on java.net recognizes that JUGs may be part of the community even if they don't ever request a project in it. So, the JUGs listing lists all JUGs that want to be listed, no matter where they host their members. And the JUGs Community is still the place for the JUG leaders to discuss, even when their JUGs don't share the java.net infrastructure. Some JUGs even don't trust Sun enough to request their members to register in java.net (since java.net is a Sun infrastructure). But they are part of the JUGs Community nonetheless. - JUGs then have their own java.net space, that this is all their members really see. Also, more organized JUGs also have their own (outside java.net) web space. Since JUG members are Java developers that care about the technology and learning how to use, etc, they can do this under each JUG, even if they never care for the "JUGs Community" itself. Most developers don't anyway. - This may look like "dividing" the community, but it is actually empowering the local communities. UGs will bring local developers close together, and support their activities. Developers will also participate on the larger community by themselves (like joining other forums and projects), but when they have a place they can come to to discuss and defend their local interests, it is easier to get their companies involved, they get more attention, etc. Without UGs, we loose the capillarity, and all needs to be done "over the web", where it is harder to relate to each other. And UGs will always be a division, because each will do pretty much the same thing of every other, but with a local focus. This is actually a good thing :-) - the main problem with a "JUG as a project" approach is that usually UGs don't "get it" right away. They will create the project, and not know what to do with it, because projects are focused on code activities, not really on what UGs do (presentations, events, discussions). This is a flaw on the infrastructure used, that most JUGs will try to compensate by having parallel lives on sites like Yahoo, or hosting their own services. Hope those past experiences with JUGs can help structure the OpenSolaris UGs Community. Bruno. > I like Advocates, too. We now have three possible names: Advocates, > Evangelism, Outreach. I see little consensus for a merger, but if > we can solve the structural problem with the UG community that > would go a long way to making that community more effective. > > I say we do it. Other comments? > > Jim > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-mktg mailing list > opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org Bruno. ______________________________________________________________________ Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe From flash at systemnews.com Fri Apr 6 07:43:21 2007 From: flash at systemnews.com (John J McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 10:43:21 -0400 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <46165C89.9090400@systemnews.com> Can the opensolaris.org webmaster set up links so that all these links will go to the same page: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ie-osug (works) http://www.opensolaris.org/ie-osug http://opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ie-osug (works) http://opensolaris.org/ie-osug http:/www.ie-osug.opensolaris.org http://ie-osug.opensolaris.org (replacing ie-osug for each of the osug names) The www's are redundant, but many people type www automatically! As for merging the Marketing Community and the User Group Community: , I don't think that makes sense. While there is an overlap, and the two communities work well together, there are not the same. Marketing should be engaged in activities beyond users groups and user group local activities are not marketing. -johnj Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > hey, Tim ... > > > Tim Foster wrote On 04/06/07 16:59,: >> hi Folks, >> >> Sorry for not chiming in till now. >> >> Jim Grisanzio wrote: >> >>> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the >>> User Group Community: >> >> >> I agree. I've always thought it'd be really nice if these groups >> could work more closely together - indeed, putting up the "talks & >> presentation" pages and the "how you can help opensolaris marketing" >> pages was definitely targeting both communities. >> >> As they put it in the Life Of Brian, "Brothers, we should be >> struggling together!" ;-) >> >> I also like the idea of each ug getting it's own project - if even >> for the nicer URLs it'll generate. One comment about a recent IEOSUG >> poster we did, was that >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ie-osug/iosug-9 >> doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. > > Oh, come on, that's a perfectly lovely url. :) I agree, though, a > project space will be an excellent solution to offer UGs and clean up > site issues right now. > > >> Advocate seems like a nice name to me, though I think I prefer >> Ambassador[1] - it's a gentler term than Advocate, which like >> Evangelist suggests to me some sort of foaming-at-the-mouth zealot >> (though not nearly as strongly as Evangelist does) >> >> Ambassador would imply that we're a more diplomatic bunch than that. >> > > > Ok, cool, so the list grows: > > * Ambassador Community > * Advocates Community > * Evangelism Community or Evangelization Community > * Outreach Community > > More candidates welcome ... > > > Jim > > > > >> I'm easy about the name though - it's what we do that's important. >> >> >> cheers, >> tim >> >> >> [1] This might confuse some Sun-employees I admit. There are >> programmes inside Sun where sales engineers can become >> "OS Ambassadors", "Network Ambassadors", etc. potential >> confusion there if there's ever an Sun-internal "OpenSolaris >> Ambassador" programme. However, what those guys do, and what >> we do is virtually the same thing: >> http://blogs.sun.com/jimlaurent/entry/what_is_a_sun_os >> > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-mktg mailing list > opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org > -- John J. McLaughlin, Editor-in-Chief/CTO, System News Inc. Publishers of "SunFlash" (http://sunflash.sun.com) "System News for Sun Users" and "System News for Sun iForce Partners" flash at systemnews.com +1 (954) 234 8990 http://sun.systemnews.com LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/e/fpf/228699 From Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM Fri Apr 6 08:17:27 2007 From: Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM (Bruno F. Souza) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:17:27 -0300 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <200704060022.17652.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <46158948.4010302@Sun.COM> <200704060022.17652.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> Message-ID: On 06/04/2007, at 04:22, Alan DuBoff wrote: > On Thursday 05 April 2007 04:42 pm, Jim Grisanzio wrote: >> Absolutely true. But there's a little 'but' in there, too. Each user >> group has their own list but I had wanted ug-discuss to be the >> meta list >> so that members of all user groups could potentially talk to each >> other >> easily to share ideas, stories, materials, etc as well. > > But if we form small communities within, we end up being divided, > to some > extent. I believe if we do that we encourage segregation, my 2 yen. Right, and this is good :-) Small communities that share common local interests, that join local developers. This is all positive. You have to realize that when you talk about people, there is already a segregation. People are physically separated. They speak different languages. They are convinced by different arguments. The idea that communities are formed as "one global community" is false. The global community is the merge of small local groups of friends, like people in a University or a Company. Those expand their activities to form local (city-wide?) groups of interested developers that promote activities together (those are the ones we call UGs). Those can work together with other, nearby groups, maybe promoting a larger event that join a few UGs into some common activity (next week we'll have in Brazil several events organized by around 20 JUGs. Other exemples are UGs joining together to work on translations and even open source projects). The fact is: it is easier for a developer to interact with local peers, in the local language. This is what the "global community" will never be able to achieve. By being "global" the community is huge, and overwhelming. Only the most daring, english-fluent, with large experience, can survive or be noticed in it, and them they become "hard to reach, everybody competes for their attention" global "stars". Local communities create local leaders, that act to influence even larger local communities, and that can at some point become global leaders also. The (comparatively) few local developers that can survive and strive on their own on the "global" community will continue to do so, and can act as the link between the local and the global community. But they will also become local stars, making the local developers proud and hopeful that they can also "get there". This is all positive. Thinking in other areas, this is why we have University sport leagues, state leagues, national leagues and worldwide sports leagues. To build up pride and confidence from local to worldwide. By the nature of open source projects, that are done over the network, with centralized accessible code to everyone, we tend to forget that local activities matter. Strong local communities are needed for influencing universities, companies, and also governments, to adopt or invest in a product or technology. The close contact, and also the understand that there is local knowledge, support, services, etc, makes the technology much more real and useful to everyone. It lowers the risk when you know your neighbors are also doing this. By only having the "global" community, there is no local organization that can act as a place to come and discuss one's problems. And we all know that we tend to think that our problems are different then the rest of the world's problems, so, local groups can discuss the "local" problems (even when they are the same) in a much better way. So, no, this is not creating segregation, it is just recognizing that people are already separated by location, customs, language. And build on this strength. The global community can never come to a local government or company, and explain in terms they can understand, why adopting OpenSolaris is a good thing. But we can explain this to one local person, that can then do the same to many others. This is the essence of UGs. Bruno. ______________________________________________________________________ Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe From stevel at sun.com Fri Apr 6 22:25:39 2007 From: stevel at sun.com (Stephen Lau) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 22:25:39 -0700 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4615CEB0.8030405@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4611CD00.6010603@Sun.COM> <46135569.2050400@Sun.COM> <4615836B.8020007@Sun.COM> <4615CEB0.8030405@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <20070407052539.GB955551@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 01:38:08PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org & ug-discuss at opensolaris.org are merged > into xxx at opensolaris.org under the new xxx community. Each UG keeps its > own list but becomes a project associated with the new xxx community. I bet if you had formed your proposal such that it was for an 'xxx community' from the beginning, you'd have tons of +1's. ;-) > I'm fine to leave the merger idea sit for now but just clean up the UG > community by making them projects. We'll see what other say. I wouldn't mind merging the communities and having the user groups be projects affiliated with/endorsed-by the merged community. cheers, steve -- stephen lau // stevel at sun.com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net opensolaris // solaris kernel development From stevel at sun.com Fri Apr 6 22:26:55 2007 From: stevel at sun.com (Stephen Lau) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 22:26:55 -0700 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4615CC25.2040104@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> <20070406041616.GD731800@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> <4615CC25.2040104@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <20070407052655.GC955551@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 01:27:17PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > > Stephen Lau wrote On 04/06/07 13:16,: > >On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 12:40:10PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > > >> > >>Stephen Hahn wrote On 04/06/07 11:43,: > >> > >>>* Jim Grisanzio [2007-04-05 16:13]: > >>> > >>> > >>>>If we don't put them in a meta-community, though, then we don't really > >>>>have a place for them under the current site structure. I know that > >>>>people want a wiki feature on the site and that's being specified > >>>>right now, so maybe individual UGs can take a wiki page someplace and > >>>>we can remove the UG community altogether. That's certainly an option > >>>>as well. But I agree: the current set up can't scale at all. > >>> > >>> > >>>*cough* Projects *cough* > >>> > >>>My name suggestion (really Simon's from a year ago or so): Advocates. > >>> > >>>- Stephen > >> > >> > >> > >>Oh, cool, I like that. Ok. :) I'm an idiot. > >> > >>And we can do that right now without any merger or need to propose new > >>site changes, and it solves the immediate structural problem with the UG > >>community. UGs can still have their own spaces/lists and still > >>communicate across groups via ug-discuss. Each existing user group > >>becomes a project, and new user groups can go through the same project > >>proposal process currently in place. > >> > >>I like Advocates, too. We now have three possible names: Advocates, > >>Evangelism, Outreach. I see little consensus for a merger, but if we can > >>solve the structural problem with the UG community that would go a long > >>way to making that community more effective. > >> > >>I say we do it. Other comments? > > > > > >I'm actually in favour of the merger, as long as the name changes to one > >of those 3. I like Advocates, but fear it overlaps with the terminology > >of CRT Advocates and RTI Advocates, etc. > > And the notion of making user groups projects? I'm in favour of that too. -- stephen lau // stevel at sun.com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net opensolaris // solaris kernel development From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Sun Apr 8 19:59:49 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 11:59:49 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <5146CABB-D38E-486D-BA8E-11693790A35D@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> <5146CABB-D38E-486D-BA8E-11693790A35D@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4619AC25.5060603@Sun.COM> Bruno F. Souza wrote On 04/06/07 23:39,: > Let me describe the way we "solved" that for UG on > java.net, this may be a good starting point for the UG community for > OpenSolaris. > > - there is a JUGs Community: this is where JUG leaders join and discuss > joint efforts. The JUGs Community has a few mailing lists that are > targeted for JUG leaders to discuss things, and hosts very few content > by itself. It is more like a discussion on how each leader can make his > own group more effective by learning from others. Cool. We basically have that structure here as well (or tried to, anyway). ug-discuss is the meta list for cross UG communication, and that's basically been the leaders or the most active people. Although I had originally imagined it as a many-to-many relationship where anyone in any user group can talk to anyone in any other user group, I can see now that it's probably better to focus it as more of a leader-to-leader relationship. > - each JUG can request a project on java.net, that will go "under" the > JUGs Community. The project hosts the JUG mailing lists, files, etc. > Some JUGs even have _software_ projects, that are hosted as sub- > projects of their JUG. One important thing is that in java.net project > requests are not a "community wide" thing. So, JUGs request projects > for the JGs Community, and that gets approved by JUG Community Leaders, > that are elected by the JUG Leaders. So, when a JUG request a project, > it can be approved right away (it is actually put under the incubator, > and when JUGs comply with a few requirements, like creating a web page, > etc they are "graduated" to become a project under the JUGs Community). > It does not need to go trough any "community wide" approval or vote. Interesting. Ok, so we can easily migrate to a system where individual UGs become projects (so they are not just pages/lists within the UG community) as per Stephen's suggestion, but our current project request process goes to the entire OpenSolaris Community on opensolaris-discuss for approvals, not just UG Community's ug-discuss list. However, under Article 7.1 of the OpenSolaris Constitution, Community Groups are responsible for initiating and managing projects: 7.1. Purpose. In order to promote a diversity of activities within the OpenSolaris Community and to provide a means for self-governance within those activities, the OpenSolaris Community is held to be composed of Community Groups that are initiated by the OGB for the purpose of focused management and accomplishment of a given set of activities. Community Groups are, in turn, responsible for initiating and managing projects to accomplish those activities. So, this is where where the User Group Community can assert its leadership. > - The JUGs Community on java.net recognizes that JUGs may be part of > the community even if they don't ever request a project in it. So, the > JUGs listing lists all JUGs that want to be listed, no matter where > they host their members. And the JUGs Community is still the place for > the JUG leaders to discuss, even when their JUGs don't share the > java.net infrastructure. Some JUGs even don't trust Sun enough to > request their members to register in java.net (since java.net is a Sun > infrastructure). But they are part of the JUGs Community nonetheless. We have only run into this issue a couple of times. Not a big deal so far. But we do list groups that are not part of our infrastructure (though I'll have to update that list). We can and should continue this. > - JUGs then have their own java.net space, that this is all their > members really see. This will be the case when we make our groups into projects. In effect, it's true now but implemented awkwardly. > Also more organized JUGs also have their own > (outside java.net) web space. Since JUG members are Java developers > that care about the technology and learning how to use, etc, they can > do this under each JUG, even if they never care for the "JUGs > Community" itself. Most developers don't anyway. > > - This may look like "dividing" the community, but it is actually > empowering the local communities. Not at all. It's just organizing it. > UGs will bring local developers close > together, and support their activities. Developers will also > participate on the larger community by themselves (like joining other > forums and projects), but when they have a place they can come to to > discuss and defend their local interests, it is easier to get their > companies involved, they get more attention, etc. Without UGs, we loose > the capillarity, and all needs to be done "over the web", where it is > harder to relate to each other. And UGs will always be a division, > because each will do pretty much the same thing of every other, but > with a local focus. This is actually a good thing :-) Agree. > - the main problem with a "JUG as a project" approach is that usually > UGs don't "get it" right away. They will create the project, and not > know what to do with it, because projects are focused on code > activities, not really on what UGs do (presentations, events, > discussions). This is a flaw on the infrastructure used, that most JUGs > will try to compensate by having parallel lives on sites like Yahoo, or > hosting their own services. > > Hope those past experiences with JUGs can help structure the > OpenSolaris UGs Community. > > Bruno. Very helpful. Thanks ... Jim From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Sun Apr 8 20:06:11 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 12:06:11 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <46158948.4010302@Sun.COM> <200704060022.17652.Alan.DuBoff@Sun.Com> Message-ID: <4619ADA3.2060207@Sun.COM> Bruno F. Souza wrote On 04/07/07 00:17,: > > On 06/04/2007, at 04:22, Alan DuBoff wrote: > >> On Thursday 05 April 2007 04:42 pm, Jim Grisanzio wrote: >> >>> Absolutely true. But there's a little 'but' in there, too. Each user >>> group has their own list but I had wanted ug-discuss to be the meta >>> list >>> so that members of all user groups could potentially talk to each other >>> easily to share ideas, stories, materials, etc as well. >> >> >> But if we form small communities within, we end up being divided, to >> some >> extent. I believe if we do that we encourage segregation, my 2 yen. > > > Right, and this is good :-) > Small communities that share common local interests, that join local > developers. This is all positive. > > You have to realize that when you talk about people, there is already a > segregation. People are physically separated. They speak different > languages. They are convinced by different arguments. The idea that > communities are formed as "one global community" is false. The global > community is the merge of small local groups of friends, like people in > a University or a Company. Those expand their activities to form local > (city-wide?) groups of interested developers that promote activities > together (those are the ones we call UGs). Those can work together with > other, nearby groups, maybe promoting a larger event that join a few > UGs into some common activity (next week we'll have in Brazil several > events organized by around 20 JUGs. Other exemples are UGs joining > together to work on translations and even open source projects). > > The fact is: it is easier for a developer to interact with local peers, > in the local language. This is what the "global community" will never > be able to achieve. By being "global" the community is huge, and > overwhelming. Only the most daring, english-fluent, with large > experience, can survive or be noticed in it, and them they become "hard > to reach, everybody competes for their attention" global "stars". Local > communities create local leaders, that act to influence even larger > local communities, and that can at some point become global leaders > also. The (comparatively) few local developers that can survive and > strive on their own on the "global" community will continue to do so, > and can act as the link between the local and the global community. But > they will also become local stars, making the local developers proud > and hopeful that they can also "get there". This is all positive. > Thinking in other areas, this is why we have University sport leagues, > state leagues, national leagues and worldwide sports leagues. To build > up pride and confidence from local to worldwide. By the nature of open > source projects, that are done over the network, with centralized > accessible code to everyone, we tend to forget that local activities > matter. > > Strong local communities are needed for influencing universities, > companies, and also governments, to adopt or invest in a product or > technology. The close contact, and also the understand that there is > local knowledge, support, services, etc, makes the technology much more > real and useful to everyone. It lowers the risk when you know your > neighbors are also doing this. By only having the "global" community, > there is no local organization that can act as a place to come and > discuss one's problems. And we all know that we tend to think that our > problems are different then the rest of the world's problems, so, local > groups can discuss the "local" problems (even when they are the same) > in a much better way. > > So, no, this is not creating segregation, it is just recognizing that > people are already separated by location, customs, language. And build > on this strength. The global community can never come to a local > government or company, and explain in terms they can understand, why > adopting OpenSolaris is a good thing. But we can explain this to one > local person, that can then do the same to many others. This is the > essence of UGs. > > Bruno. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan > http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br > if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe I agree with a lot of your observations and experiences here. I think we (all of us, I mean) are getting closer to a clean-up strategy here. Let's give this a few more days to see if we get any other opinions. Then later this week I'll summarize the comments on the thread and see if we can agree on some basic issues and move ahead on a stepped approach and then address areas of disagreement later or in different ways. Thanks ... Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Sun Apr 8 20:29:41 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 12:29:41 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <5146CABB-D38E-486D-BA8E-11693790A35D@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> <5146CABB-D38E-486D-BA8E-11693790A35D@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4619B325.6090404@Sun.COM> Bruno F. Souza wrote On 04/06/07 23:39,: > - each JUG can request a project on java.net, that will go "under" the > JUGs Community. The project hosts the JUG mailing lists, files, etc. > Some JUGs even have _software_ projects, that are hosted as sub- > projects of their JUG. One important thing is that in java.net project > requests are not a "community wide" thing. So, JUGs request projects > for the JGs Community, and that gets approved by JUG Community Leaders, > that are elected by the JUG Leaders. So, when a JUG request a project, > it can be approved right away (it is actually put under the incubator, > and when JUGs comply with a few requirements, like creating a web page, > etc they are "graduated" to become a project under the JUGs Community). > It does not need to go trough any "community wide" approval or vote. Question: After the request for a new JUG is made to the JUG Community and then approved, how is the infrastructure set up? Is that a manual process to create the page/list/etc or is it automated via the site software? Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Sun Apr 8 21:05:42 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 13:05:42 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <46165C89.9090400@systemnews.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <46165C89.9090400@systemnews.com> Message-ID: <4619BB96.7080402@Sun.COM> John J McLaughlin wrote On 04/06/07 23:43,: > Can the opensolaris.org webmaster set up links so that all these links > will go to the same page: Not sure. But I think we have a good idea here of making the UGs into projects, so that would clean up the url problem and make the leadership issues of each UG clear. Also, I'd rather see us get a clean standard implementation first than putting in four or five re-directs for each of the 50 or so user groups. > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ie-osug (works) > > http://www.opensolaris.org/ie-osug > http://opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ie-osug (works) > http://opensolaris.org/ie-osug > http:/www.ie-osug.opensolaris.org > http://ie-osug.opensolaris.org > > (replacing ie-osug for each of the osug names) > > The www's are redundant, but many people type www automatically! > > As for merging the Marketing Community and the User Group Community: , I > don't think that makes sense. While there is an overlap, and the two > communities work well together, there are not the same. > Marketing should be engaged in activities beyond users groups and user > group local activities are not marketing. Marketing and UGs are not the same, you are right. But they overlap in many areas, and they are directly related since one community grew from the other and they still share some resources. All that is easy to document. However, the idea being discussed is to merge them into something /greater/ than they are now. UG activities would continue and marketing activities would continue. But we'd build more components into the mix and establish a more diverse and stronger (to be named) community and one with more influence under the new OpenSolaris Constitution. Regardless. This merger issue can wait. The discussion is valuable for us to address the immediate structural issues of the UG Community. That's most important in the short term. Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris > > Jim Grisanzio wrote: > >> >> hey, Tim ... >> >> >> Tim Foster wrote On 04/06/07 16:59,: >> >>> hi Folks, >>> >>> Sorry for not chiming in till now. >>> >>> Jim Grisanzio wrote: >>> >>>> I'd like to propose that we merge the Marketing Community and the >>>> User Group Community: >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree. I've always thought it'd be really nice if these groups >>> could work more closely together - indeed, putting up the "talks & >>> presentation" pages and the "how you can help opensolaris marketing" >>> pages was definitely targeting both communities. >>> >>> As they put it in the Life Of Brian, "Brothers, we should be >>> struggling together!" ;-) >>> >>> I also like the idea of each ug getting it's own project - if even >>> for the nicer URLs it'll generate. One comment about a recent IEOSUG >>> poster we did, was that >>> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ie-osug/iosug-9 >>> doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. >> >> >> Oh, come on, that's a perfectly lovely url. :) I agree, though, a >> project space will be an excellent solution to offer UGs and clean up >> site issues right now. >> >> >>> Advocate seems like a nice name to me, though I think I prefer >>> Ambassador[1] - it's a gentler term than Advocate, which like >>> Evangelist suggests to me some sort of foaming-at-the-mouth zealot >>> (though not nearly as strongly as Evangelist does) >>> >>> Ambassador would imply that we're a more diplomatic bunch than that. >>> >> >> >> Ok, cool, so the list grows: >> >> * Ambassador Community >> * Advocates Community >> * Evangelism Community or Evangelization Community >> * Outreach Community >> >> More candidates welcome ... >> >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> >>> I'm easy about the name though - it's what we do that's important. >>> >>> >>> cheers, >>> tim >>> >>> >>> [1] This might confuse some Sun-employees I admit. There are >>> programmes inside Sun where sales engineers can become >>> "OS Ambassadors", "Network Ambassadors", etc. potential >>> confusion there if there's ever an Sun-internal "OpenSolaris >>> Ambassador" programme. However, what those guys do, and what >>> we do is virtually the same thing: >>> http://blogs.sun.com/jimlaurent/entry/what_is_a_sun_os >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> opensolaris-mktg mailing list >> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org >> > > -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From benr at cuddletech.com Mon Apr 9 01:16:32 2007 From: benr at cuddletech.com (Ben Rockwood) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 01:16:32 -0700 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <20070407052655.GC955551@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> <20070406041616.GD731800@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> <4615CC25.2040104@Sun.COM> <20070407052655.GC955551@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4619F660.1000103@cuddletech.com> Stephen Lau wrote: > On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 01:27:17PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > >>>> I say we do it. Other comments? >>>> >>> I'm actually in favour of the merger, as long as the name changes to one >>> of those 3. I like Advocates, but fear it overlaps with the terminology >>> of CRT Advocates and RTI Advocates, etc. >>> >> And the notion of making user groups projects? >> > > I'm in favour of that too. > I'm in favor of a merger, although it seems more appropriate that UG be folded into Marketing and then perhaps Marketing takes up a kinder gentler name, but "merger" fits the bill. I'd personally oppose "Advocates". Partly because we're describing an act, thus the plural noun "Advocates" seems inappropriate... instead, I _greatly_ prefer Evangelism. To my mind it better fits the marketing community and UG goals and actions more clearly. For instance, I'm a Core Contrib of the "Marketing Community"... but I've never "Marketed" OpenSolaris nor have I advocated it (meaning; to represent, support or promote on behalf of another), I've evangelized it. benr. From Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM Mon Apr 9 05:06:29 2007 From: Bruno.Souza at Sun.COM (Bruno F. Souza) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 09:06:29 -0300 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4619B325.6090404@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> <5146CABB-D38E-486D-BA8E-11693790A35D@Sun.COM> <4619B325.6090404@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <44365944-F1D4-4A64-9140-E763FD1745E8@Sun.COM> On 09/04/2007, at 00:29, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > Bruno F. Souza wrote On 04/06/07 23:39,: > >> - each JUG can request a project on java.net, that will go >> "under" the JUGs Community. The project hosts the JUG mailing >> lists, files, etc. Some JUGs even have _software_ projects, that >> are hosted as sub- projects of their JUG. One important thing is >> that in java.net project requests are not a "community wide" >> thing. So, JUGs request projects for the JGs Community, and that >> gets approved by JUG Community Leaders, that are elected by the >> JUG Leaders. So, when a JUG request a project, it can be approved >> right away (it is actually put under the incubator, and when JUGs >> comply with a few requirements, like creating a web page, etc >> they are "graduated" to become a project under the JUGs >> Community). It does not need to go trough any "community wide" >> approval or vote. > > > Question: After the request for a new JUG is made to the JUG > Community and then approved, how is the infrastructure set up? Is > that a manual process to create the page/list/etc or is it > automated via the site software? > Well, java.net runs on Collabnet software. So, when someone comes to the site, and request a project, the project is created and then put on a approval list. The project is already up and running by that time, but can only be accessed by the project owner (the person that requested it). Each community in java.net have the responsibility to approve/reject a project, and each community have their own rules for that (for example, the Games community requires a vote and that the project is supported by at lest 2 other already existing projects. The JUGs Community on the other hand, only requires that the request is really for a JUG, not for an open source project for example). Once approved, the project is then visible to anyone, and open to others to join it. So, the shoer answer to your question is: it is automated. Now, the one thing that is kind of manual is the project listing on the site: someone at java.net manually updates a database with all projects, that feeds both the java.net full project listing, as well as each community's project listing. Bruno. > Jim > -- > Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-mktg mailing list > opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org Bruno. ______________________________________________________________________ Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza Brazil's JavaMan http://www.javaman.com.br bruno at javaman.com.br if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe From webmink at sun.com Mon Apr 9 05:30:48 2007 From: webmink at sun.com (Simon Phipps) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 13:30:48 +0100 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4619F660.1000103@cuddletech.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> <20070406041616.GD731800@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> <4615CC25.2040104@Sun.COM> <20070407052655.GC955551@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> <4619F660.1000103@cuddletech.com> Message-ID: On Apr 9, 2007, at 09:16, Ben Rockwood wrote: > I'm in favor of a merger, although it seems more appropriate that > UG be folded into Marketing and then perhaps Marketing takes up a > kinder gentler name, but "merger" fits the bill. I agree with this too. I especially like the idea of user groups being projects within a community of advocates. A restructuring like this is certainly needed. I'd suggest that rather than "folding user groups into marketing and then renaming" we just call it a root-and- branch restructure, with a destination something like: Advocates Community: - advocacy at opensolaris.org mailing list - user-help-english at opensolaris.org mailing list - user-help-chinese at opensolaris.org mailing list (probably with a better name) - ... - Writers project - Events project - Promotional Activities Project - User Group Co-ordinators Project - Location A User Group Project - Location B User Group Project - ... > I'd personally oppose "Advocates". Partly because we're describing > an act, thus the plural noun "Advocates" seems inappropriate... > instead, I _greatly_ prefer Evangelism. To my mind it better fits > the marketing community and UG goals and actions more clearly. For > instance, I'm a Core Contrib of the "Marketing Community"... but > I've never "Marketed" OpenSolaris nor have I advocated it (meaning; > to represent, support or promote on behalf of another), I've > evangelized it. I cant't agree with this. I used the job title of "Evangelist" for many years (I pretty much introduced it into IBM after seeing how well it worked for Guy Kawasaki) and when it was novel and needed explanation it was an effective conversation-starter. I stopped using it as a job title a few years ago when it became clear that it was too closely associated with "tele-evangelists" and with religious fundamentalism (and, again, been there, done that). If we are to be a global community we need a name for this role that has positive connotations. That's why I advocated "advocates" and still think it's the best term to describe a group of people promoting OpenSolaris. In my handy pop-up dictionary, an "advocate" is "a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy" (and this seems to be reflected in most definitions[1]). I believe that perfectly describes those who promote the use of OpenSolaris-based technologies including those who gather like-minded friends and colleagues into "user groups". S. [1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Advocate From jay at meangrape.com Mon Apr 9 05:51:31 2007 From: jay at meangrape.com (Jay Edwards) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:51:31 -0500 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> <20070406041616.GD731800@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> <4615CC25.2040104@Sun.COM> <20070407052655.GC955551@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> <4619F660.1000103@cuddletech.com> Message-ID: <81a8869b0704090551x22070972nb4ed28cdc52a7a7f@mail.gmail.com> On 4/9/07, Simon Phipps wrote: > > > On Apr 9, 2007, at 09:16, Ben Rockwood wrote: > > I'd personally oppose "Advocates". Partly because we're describing > > an act, thus the plural noun "Advocates" seems inappropriate... > > instead, I _greatly_ prefer Evangelism. To my mind it better fits > > the marketing community and UG goals and actions more clearly. For > > instance, I'm a Core Contrib of the "Marketing Community"... but > > I've never "Marketed" OpenSolaris nor have I advocated it (meaning; > > to represent, support or promote on behalf of another), I've > > evangelized it. > > I cant't agree with this. I used the job title of "Evangelist" for > many years (I pretty much introduced it into IBM after seeing how > well it worked for Guy Kawasaki) and when it was novel and needed > explanation it was an effective conversation-starter. I stopped using > it as a job title a few years ago when it became clear that it was > too closely associated with "tele-evangelists" and with religious > fundamentalism (and, again, been there, done that). If we are to be a > global community we need a name for this role that has positive > connotations. That's why I advocated "advocates" and still think it's > the best term to describe a group of people promoting OpenSolaris. Yes, yes, and it reminds me of lawyers. This is just bikeshed painting. Take a show of hands and move on. Jay. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asyd at asyd.net Wed Apr 11 08:20:40 2007 From: asyd at asyd.net (Bruno Bonfils) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:20:40 PDT Subject: [ug-discuss] Create some petition / survey on opensolaris.org Message-ID: <3024726.1176304876757.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> Hello, first of all, I hope I am in the right place.. As the president of the french user group, we want to create some (international) petitions and/or survey. For example, I dream that Sun release the source of Directory Editor, a Java application to edit the content of a LDAP. This product has only one release, in 2005Q1, a bit old (for example to translate it, extend it, etc..) So I have few questions, what do you think we can do as opensolaris community ? I don't think Sun care about this application, since there is only one release. And then, have you planned to add a survey "portlet" on opensolaris.org ? Thanks for your reply This message posted from opensolaris.org From sks at cvok.co.uk Wed Apr 11 08:28:55 2007 From: sks at cvok.co.uk (Sean Sprague) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 16:28:55 +0100 Subject: [ug-discuss] LOSUG April Meeting - 18/04/2007 - just 1 week away! Message-ID: <461CFEB7.5050101@cvok.co.uk> Hello all, Well it is rapidly approaching the time for the April meeting of LOSUG. In fact, it is just one week away; taking place on 18/04/2007. The topic for discussion this month is Solaris NFS Futures. For more information, including registration details, please visit the LOSUG website at http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/losug/ We hope to see you on the 18th! Thanks and regards... Sean Sprague. From spp at unixsa.net Thu Apr 12 11:43:30 2007 From: spp at unixsa.net (Stephen Potter) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <2407.159.53.110.141.1176403410.squirrel@www.unixsa.net> > * Ambassador Community > * Advocates Community > * Evangelism Community or Evangelization Community > * Outreach Community I've been quietly following this discussion since Jim proposed it. I was initially completely against the idea of the merger of the communities, because the marketing community always seemed a little more "formal" and "controlled" (although I've always felt my contributions were encouraged, welcomed, and accepted, it still felt like mostly a "corporate" community to allow outside input and there seemed to be lots of internal things going on that the community couldn't really be involved in). The user groups on the other hand were grass-roots and informal, more of a real external community. I feel the recent proposal to broaden the user-group community into more of an outreach community makes a whole lot of sense. I still don't think the marketing community should be part of the outreach community, but I do think they should have close ties. As to naming opinions, I agree that Ambassador might be confusing (it also sounds kind of official, which may be off-putting to new contributors), and Evangelism evokes the whole OS religion problem. I personally think Advocates is the wrong form, that it should be Advocacy (which only mirrors Approachability), but Advocates parallels communities such as Immigrants, System Administrators, Chinese Users, so it seems there is some precedent. -spp -- Stephen Potter Director, LOPSA Executive Board Support Open Solaris "I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is a disgrace, two useless men are a law firm, and three are a congress." - John Adams From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Thu Apr 12 18:30:09 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:30:09 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> <20070406041616.GD731800@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> <4615CC25.2040104@Sun.COM> <20070407052655.GC955551@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> <4619F660.1000103@cuddletech.com> Message-ID: <461EDD21.2030706@Sun.COM> Simon Phipps wrote On 04/09/07 21:30,: > > On Apr 9, 2007, at 09:16, Ben Rockwood wrote: > >> I'm in favor of a merger, although it seems more appropriate that UG >> be folded into Marketing and then perhaps Marketing takes up a kinder >> gentler name, but "merger" fits the bill. > > > I agree with this too. I especially like the idea of user groups being > projects within a community of advocates. A restructuring like this is > certainly needed. I'd suggest that rather than "folding user groups > into marketing and then renaming" we just call it a root-and- branch > restructure, with a destination something like: > > Advocates Community: > - advocacy at opensolaris.org mailing list > - user-help-english at opensolaris.org mailing list > - user-help-chinese at opensolaris.org mailing list (probably with a > better name) > - ... > - Writers project > - Events project > - Promotional Activities Project > - User Group Co-ordinators Project > - Location A User Group Project > - Location B User Group Project > - ... > > >> I'd personally oppose "Advocates". Partly because we're describing >> an act, thus the plural noun "Advocates" seems inappropriate... >> instead, I _greatly_ prefer Evangelism. To my mind it better fits >> the marketing community and UG goals and actions more clearly. For >> instance, I'm a Core Contrib of the "Marketing Community"... but I've >> never "Marketed" OpenSolaris nor have I advocated it (meaning; to >> represent, support or promote on behalf of another), I've evangelized >> it. > > > I cant't agree with this. I used the job title of "Evangelist" for many > years (I pretty much introduced it into IBM after seeing how well it > worked for Guy Kawasaki) and when it was novel and needed explanation > it was an effective conversation-starter. I stopped using it as a job > title a few years ago when it became clear that it was too closely > associated with "tele-evangelists" and with religious fundamentalism > (and, again, been there, done that). If we are to be a global community > we need a name for this role that has positive connotations. That's why > I advocated "advocates" and still think it's the best term to describe > a group of people promoting OpenSolaris. > > In my handy pop-up dictionary, an "advocate" is "a person who publicly > supports or recommends a particular cause or policy" (and this seems to > be reflected in most definitions[1]). I believe that perfectly > describes those who promote the use of OpenSolaris-based technologies > including those who gather like-minded friends and colleagues into > "user groups". > > S. > > > [1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Advocate I'm liking the word Advocates more and more in this context. I'm looking into what's involved from a site perspective for us to do all this. We'll have to engage the OGB as well. But I think we have a good start and some good ideas. Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Thu Apr 12 18:34:20 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:34:20 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4619F660.1000103@cuddletech.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <461582A0.1080900@Sun.COM> <20070406024325.GA29241@eng.sun.com> <4615C11A.8040005@Sun.COM> <20070406041616.GD731800@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> <4615CC25.2040104@Sun.COM> <20070407052655.GC955551@jurassic-x4600.Eng.Sun.COM> <4619F660.1000103@cuddletech.com> Message-ID: <461EDE1C.1040405@Sun.COM> Ben Rockwood wrote On 04/09/07 17:16,: > Stephen Lau wrote: > >> On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 01:27:17PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote: >> >> >>>>> I say we do it. Other comments? >>>>> >>>> >>>> I'm actually in favour of the merger, as long as the name changes to >>>> one >>>> of those 3. I like Advocates, but fear it overlaps with the >>>> terminology >>>> of CRT Advocates and RTI Advocates, etc. >>> >>> And the notion of making user groups projects? >>> >> >> >> I'm in favour of that too. >> > > > I'm in favor of a merger, although it seems more appropriate that UG be > folded into Marketing and then perhaps Marketing takes up a kinder > gentler name, but "merger" fits the bill. Yah, perhaps "merger" isn't the proper term here. All I mean is that the two communities will become one but with more features and activities and hopefully more focus, that's all. Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From michal.pryc at sun.com Fri Apr 13 04:21:14 2007 From: michal.pryc at sun.com (Michal Pryc) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 04:21:14 PDT Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <46123A4E.3060003@sun.com> Message-ID: <30236616.1176463311705.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> > Perhaps organizing the user groups by region --having them nested under the main regional > heading pages--would solve the long list problem. Might also help user groups to leverage their > geographies better. I will add 2 euros to this discussion ;) This is good point, I would say that the groups should be better organized by regions The page: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/osug-leaders/ lists the groups by countries, but actually in one country there might be many user-groups, like region user-group or university one. In this case people would know what is happening in their area, and be able to make their own meetings, presentations etc. not only on the other side of the country. Whou would like to drive >50km each month to go to the user-group meeting? best Michal This message posted from opensolaris.org From laurent at elanor.org Fri Apr 13 04:46:49 2007 From: laurent at elanor.org (Laurent Blume) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 13:46:49 +0200 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <30236616.1176463311705.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> References: <30236616.1176463311705.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> Message-ID: <461F6DA9.6070505@elanor.org> Michal Pryc a ?crit : > I will add 2 euros to this discussion ;) This is good point, I would > say that the groups should be better organized by regions The page: > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/osug-leaders/ > > lists the groups by countries, but actually in one country there > might be many user-groups, like region user-group or university one. > > In this case people would know what is happening in their area, and > be able to make their own meetings, presentations etc. not only on > the other side of the country. > > Whou would like to drive >50km each month to go to the user-group > meeting? There is another case: our French-speaking Solaris UG (ug-fosug) is that, French-speaking. We're focusing on the common language, worldwide, not on a specific geographic region. To give some more details: It stems from it's origin: there was first a French-speaking Solaris mailing list, created more than 2 years ago, that turned into a UG later, when the mailing list moved on opensolaris.org. There is a now a formal association, based in Paris, France, because it eased the relationship with Sun, but already, with founding members in Canada and France. Since then, the community itself expanded much larger, with people from Belgium, Switzerland, North Africa... We're a community that does both real-life meetings, and online discussions. So I like to stress out that while I'm not opposed to some sort of regional separation, it won't fit every need. I do not see a point in splitting up our community right now. Laurent From Michal.Pryc at Sun.COM Fri Apr 13 04:59:21 2007 From: Michal.Pryc at Sun.COM (Michal Pryc) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:59:21 +0100 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <461F6DA9.6070505@elanor.org> References: <30236616.1176463311705.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> <461F6DA9.6070505@elanor.org> Message-ID: <461F7099.4050407@Sun.Com> Laurent Blume wrote: > Michal Pryc a ?crit : > >> I will add 2 euros to this discussion ;) This is good point, I would >> say that the groups should be better organized by regions The page: >> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/osug-leaders/ >> >> lists the groups by countries, but actually in one country there >> might be many user-groups, like region user-group or university one. >> >> In this case people would know what is happening in their area, and >> be able to make their own meetings, presentations etc. not only on >> the other side of the country. >> >> Whou would like to drive >50km each month to go to the user-group >> meeting? >> > > There is another case: our French-speaking Solaris UG (ug-fosug) is > that, French-speaking. We're focusing on the common language, worldwide, > not on a specific geographic region. > > To give some more details: > It stems from it's origin: there was first a French-speaking Solaris > mailing list, created more than 2 years ago, that turned into a UG > later, when the mailing list moved on opensolaris.org. > There is a now a formal association, based in Paris, France, because it > eased the relationship with Sun, but already, with founding members in > Canada and France. > Since then, the community itself expanded much larger, with people from > Belgium, Switzerland, North Africa... > We're a community that does both real-life meetings, and online discussions. > > So I like to stress out that while I'm not opposed to some sort of > regional separation, it won't fit every need. I do not see a point in > splitting up our community right > Laurent, I agree with you that we can not make everyone happy, but maybe there should be some sort of user-group tree, with tags? so each user-group should have tags like: language, region, country, etc... and the people would be able to access the user-group by tag, so for example all French talking user-groups, or all French talking group from Brittany or all languages user-groups from Brittany. In this case we would have very nice access to them. best Michal Pryc From laurent at elanor.org Fri Apr 13 05:25:14 2007 From: laurent at elanor.org (Laurent Blume) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:25:14 +0200 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <461F7099.4050407@Sun.Com> References: <30236616.1176463311705.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> <461F6DA9.6070505@elanor.org> <461F7099.4050407@Sun.Com> Message-ID: <461F76AA.9080205@elanor.org> Michal Pryc a ?crit : > I agree with you that we can not make everyone happy, but maybe there > should be some sort of user-group tree, with tags? so each user-group > should have tags First, I don't want to give the impression I'm not happy :-) I understand the need for clarification. > like: language, region, country, etc... > and the people would be able to access the user-group by tag, so for > example all French talking user-groups, or all French talking group from > Brittany or all languages user-groups from Brittany. > > In this case we would have very nice access to them. Ok, I see, so the entry point would be the language, not the geographical region, then subdivided into more localized UG later when the userbase have grown enough for them to appear. I believe that would also make sense for the other groups, actually, and some groups could appear twice: en/atlosug losug ... zh/bjosug shosug zh-users ... fr/fosug chosug ... de/gosug chosug ... Does that make sense? Not saying this is THE solution, but after all, this is quite the way OS locales are classified already, and there's a reason it was chosen to be like that: first, you need to understand the language to be then able to choose a more precise localization. I'm aiming at end-users that won't be able to read English at all. Laurent From Michal.Pryc at Sun.COM Fri Apr 13 05:46:49 2007 From: Michal.Pryc at Sun.COM (Michal Pryc) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 13:46:49 +0100 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <461F76AA.9080205@elanor.org> References: <30236616.1176463311705.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> <461F6DA9.6070505@elanor.org> <461F7099.4050407@Sun.Com> <461F76AA.9080205@elanor.org> Message-ID: <461F7BB9.5070004@Sun.Com> Laurent Blume wrote: > Michal Pryc a ?crit : > >> I agree with you that we can not make everyone happy, but maybe there >> should be some sort of user-group tree, with tags? so each user-group >> should have tags >> > > First, I don't want to give the impression I'm not happy :-) > I understand the need for clarification. > > >> like: language, region, country, etc... >> and the people would be able to access the user-group by tag, so for >> example all French talking user-groups, or all French talking group from >> Brittany or all languages user-groups from Brittany. >> >> In this case we would have very nice access to them. >> > > Ok, I see, so the entry point would be the language, not the > geographical region, then subdivided into more localized UG later when > the userbase have grown enough for them to appear. > > I believe that would also make sense for the other groups, actually, and > some groups could appear twice: > > en/atlosug > losug > ... > zh/bjosug > shosug > zh-users > ... > fr/fosug > chosug > ... > de/gosug > chosug > ... > > Does that make sense? > > Not saying this is THE solution, but after all, this is quite the way OS > locales are classified already, and there's a reason it was chosen to be > like that: first, you need to understand the language to be then able to > choose a more precise localization. I'm aiming at end-users that won't > be able to read English at all. > Lauren, I didn't mean that the entry point should be the language. In mine conception there wouldn't be entry point or it would be the name of a user-group. So: group1 group2 group-fancy-name3 each group would have tags: group1: country:france, region:brittany, lang:french, university:ubs, anothertag: value group2: country:canada, lang:french group-fancy-name3: lang:english, university:ubs some tags should be mandatory, and of course tags should be specified by opensolaris group maintainer, to not make chaos. In this case, person would like to search/access group by name or by tag: Case1: user want to know what is going on in france, than would subscribe to "country:feance" Case2: user want to know about all the french speeking groups, so would subscribe to "lang:french" Case3: user want to know about all the groups from university ubs, so would subscribe to "university:ubs" Case 4: user want to subscribe to specified user-group, so would subscribe to "group-fancy-name3" of course group names should mean something... P.S. I am also not saying that this is THE solution, but just little ideas... Michal From webmink at sun.com Fri Apr 13 06:03:23 2007 From: webmink at sun.com (Simon Phipps) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:03:23 -0300 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <461F76AA.9080205@elanor.org> References: <30236616.1176463311705.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> <461F6DA9.6070505@elanor.org> <461F7099.4050407@Sun.Com> <461F76AA.9080205@elanor.org> Message-ID: <40D4D19A-A141-48F5-8875-7DB7F412D3BC@sun.com> On Apr 13, 2007, at 09:25, Laurent Blume wrote: > I believe that would also make sense for the other groups, > actually, and > some groups could appear twice: > > en/atlosug > losug > ... > zh/bjosug > shosug > zh-users > ... > fr/fosug > chosug > ... > de/gosug > chosug > ... > > Does that make sense? I like that, it's smart. Looking beyond just the actual user group meetings, it would mean that discussions and resources in each language would be easy to find, encouraging users that they are not alone. By contrast, grouping geographically would tend to isolate different groups among each other - "lonely in crowds". S. From laurent at elanor.org Fri Apr 13 07:10:48 2007 From: laurent at elanor.org (Laurent Blume) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:10:48 +0200 Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <40D4D19A-A141-48F5-8875-7DB7F412D3BC@sun.com> References: <30236616.1176463311705.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> <461F6DA9.6070505@elanor.org> <461F7099.4050407@Sun.Com> <461F76AA.9080205@elanor.org> <40D4D19A-A141-48F5-8875-7DB7F412D3BC@sun.com> Message-ID: <461F8F68.5080004@elanor.org> Simon Phipps a ?crit : > I like that, it's smart. Looking beyond just the actual user group > meetings, it would mean that discussions and resources in each language > would be easy to find, encouraging users that they are not alone. By > contrast, grouping geographically would tend to isolate different groups > among each other - "lonely in crowds". Exactly my point. English-speaking people tend to notice that less, since it's become a lingua franca on the internet. I think it's also compatible with Michal's idea of tags: it would be a particular view using the language/country/city tags (language being the only one mandatory in that case). That could be the default, and let advanced users use more sophisticated sorting. But in all honesty, I've got mixed feelings about the tag idea. I know it's fashionable, but my del.icio.us account tend to show how very few tags are actually reused when the choice if left free. I suppose it could work with a good implementation. Laurent From pedro.gomez at sun.com Fri Apr 13 12:37:06 2007 From: pedro.gomez at sun.com (Pedro Gomez) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:37:06 PDT Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <6736782.1176493056253.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> I have not read the thread responses, but the idea of merging Marketing with Community (specially if we are talking about an Open Source one) does not makes me happy. It is a strange thing because I do believe in that marketing plays a role in sparking the interest of the mass, but to make it an official move is not something I would do. The community "spirit" usually is against the sales and marketing pitches. Users might want to have a place for themselves where the taste is about discussing whats going on and not that of "someone is selling me something". Again, I believe Marketing efforts should be present but not as a "merge" but as a "back office enabler". Pedro This message posted from opensolaris.org From rlhamil at smart.net Sat Apr 14 02:56:31 2007 From: rlhamil at smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 02:56:31 PDT Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: Re: Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <461F7099.4050407@Sun.Com> Message-ID: <9694825.1176544621962.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> French language UG for Brittany??? Equal rights for Breton, please! :-) This message posted from opensolaris.org From Bart.Muyzer at Sun.COM Thu Apr 12 03:44:03 2007 From: Bart.Muyzer at Sun.COM (Bart Muijzer) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:44:03 +0200 Subject: [ug-discuss] URGENT: Looking for speaker on Crossbow Message-ID: <461E0D73.4040601@sun.com> Hello, Sorry for the wide distribution ... I have an urgent question though. I have been in contact with several people inside SUN who are all very helpful, but I haven;t found a speaker yet. I host the NetherLands OpenSolaris User Group (NLOSUG) and I wonder if someone can help me with contacting speakers for our next event, which is planned on May 3d. The topic for this event will be CROSSBOW. NLOSUG started in October 2006 and we did 2 events since. The first attracted 70+ people, the second around 50. For our third event I'm looking for a speaker specifically on Crossbow. Can you help me with getting names? Do we have policies for speakers that need to travel (in this case to the Netherlands)? Any help appreciated! ============================================================================ What I'm looking for is someone who can talk indepth technical on Crossbow. This is for a planned meeting with the NetherLands OpenSolaris User Group (NLOSUG), on the evening of May 3d, in The Netherlands. ============================================================================ Regards, >] Bartm [< -- Bart Muijzer Email: bart.muyzer at sun.com Solution Architect & OS Ambassador Tel: +31-33-4515218; Fax: +31-33-4515001 Client Solutions Organisation Intranet: http://webhome.holland/bartm Sun Microsystems Nederland BV Internet: http://www.muijzer.com/ -- MOUSEBITS, my Blog at: http://blogs.sun.com/bartm -- From Tim.Foster at Sun.COM Mon Apr 16 14:26:40 2007 From: Tim.Foster at Sun.COM (Tim Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:26:40 +0100 Subject: [ug-discuss] 9th Irish OpenSolaris User Group Meeting Message-ID: <1176758800.2018.32.camel@dingdong> Hi All, We're happy to announce the 9th Irish OpenSolaris User Group Meeting. This month Eoin Hughes and Alberto Ruiz will be presenting a talk called "OpenSolaris for GNU/Linux Users". Date: Tuesday 24th April 2007 Time: 7pm Location: TCD, Robert Emmet Theatre, Arts Block This talk aims to give an introduction to some aspects of OpenSolaris that could prove helpful to users coming from other UNIX-like operating systems. Eoin and Alberto plan to cover things like /proc, SMF and the SVR4 packaging system - enough to get you started with using OpenSolaris. If this topic proves popular, we'd be happy to do similar talks in the future about other aspects of OpenSolaris that may appear different from other operating systems you've used in the past. Likewise, if you'd like more in-depth technical discussions of any of the things covered, then we'd be happy to oblige. We'll probably head to a local pub afterwards to continue the discussions - everyone welcome! Announcement at http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ie-osug/iosug-8 cheers, tim -- Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Solaris Engineering Ops http://blogs.sun.com/timf From ramirose at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 21:37:05 2007 From: ramirose at gmail.com (Rami Rosen) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:37:05 +0300 Subject: [ug-discuss] Open Solaris lecture in Haifux (comments) Message-ID: Hello all, I had recently given a lecture about Open Solaris in Haifux (a local Israeli Linux User Group). see: http://www.haifux.org/lectures/160/ You are invited and welcomed to give comments about this lecture, as I want to make corrections to it upon feedback I will get. Here are the comments I got so far: 1) "Dual license: CDDL and GPLv3. ? The GPLv3 licensing of Open Solaris is currently not adopted by SUN." It should be made clear that currently it is NOT Dual license and that the GPLv3 option was rejectted. 2) You need to reboot to detect new devices 3) regarding release of Solaris as open source: "Solaris was released as open source in 2005" - it wasn't, just the OS/Networking consolidation was - over time, more consolidations are being added with the overall goal to include all the source from Solaris. 4) pkg-get isn't part of official Solaris 5) 3 types of Solaris" is a bit misleading - depending on how you look at it, there's 1 or 6. 6) "Commercially based" - maybe better to rephrase this slide and maybe omit "Commercially based". 7) "Each zone has a root filesystem for itself" - not precise, as you can host many zones on the same filesystem, however each zone root gets it's own directory hierarchy. Regards, Rami Rosen From Joey.Guo at Sun.COM Mon Apr 23 06:31:04 2007 From: Joey.Guo at Sun.COM (joey) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:31:04 +0800 Subject: [ug-discuss] Report of the 7th OpenSolaris Beijing User Group Meeting in China Academy of Science Message-ID: <462CB518.7080708@sun.com> Hi Folks, OpenSolaris Beijing User Group has successfully held the 7th meeting on the evening of last Friday, April 20, 2007 in China Academy of Science. The main topic is Java Desktop System - The new generation Desktop System on Solaris 10 and OpenSolaris. For more details, please visit my blog - blogs.sun.com/joeyguo. To support the Open Source Programming Contest based on OpenSolaris in China Academy of Science (the top research institute in China), OpenSolaris Beijing User Group will deliver a series of open tutoring regularly. JDS was naturally chosen as the starting point because it is the first impression of Solaris end users. The follow-up topics will cover more on Solaris Developer Tools and OpenSolaris development guide like porting Linux/BSD applications and writing device drivers. Please stay tuned. Below is the outline of this event (Host: Joey Guo): 6:30 - 7:00pm Keynote: JDS New Features, Paul Mei, JDS Manager, Sun China Engineering and Research Institute; 7:00 - 7:30pm Demo: JDS Cool features: Firefox, Thunderbird, 3D Desktop, JDS Engineers, ERI; 7:30 - 8:00pm HOL: SMF and Zones, Ganesh Hiregoudar, University Program Manager of IEC; 8:00 - 8:30pm The way to Mozilla developer, Alfred Peng, ERI 8:30 - 9:00pm How to become JDS test star, Emily Chen, ERI 9:00 - 9:30pm HAL/Dbus development tutorial, Simon Zheng , ERI 9:30 - 10:00pm Q&A and Lucky draw 10:00 - 11:00pm Dinner About 70 master students and developers participated in this meeting and all of them has been given the leaflets of OpenSolaris Registration Program and Unix-Center Experience Center and a set of OpenSolaris Starter Kit. 5 Solaris 10 Red Bible books and Solaris System Programming books are presented during Q&A. 10 T-shirts are given away during the last minute lucky draw. Totally there are 27 survey forms submitted and 23 are willing to join the OpenSolaris Beijing User Group and most of them are interested to attend the Mozilla Test Day. Special thanks to John Jiang for the event support. Special thanks to the honorable speakers for their attractive talks and stick to the last minute without having a dinner. Thanks for Paul Mei to keynotes the event. Thanks to Zhaozhou Li for referring the speakers. Thanks Campus Ambassadors (Yu-Xin Tang, E Yuan) in assisting the event organization. Best regards, -- Joey Guo, University Program Manager Sun China Engineering & Research Institute Tel: (86)10-62673245 Mobile: (86)13701115218 http://blogs.sun.com/JoeyGuo http://opentech.org.cn http://eri.prc/wiki/univ From Scott.Dickson at Sun.COM Tue Apr 24 06:33:21 2007 From: Scott.Dickson at Sun.COM (Scott Dickson) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:33:21 -0400 Subject: [ug-discuss] How do you reinvigorate a user group? Message-ID: <462E0721.1010102@Sun.Com> After about a year and a half, our OSUG in Atlanta is struggling, I think. We have always had a hard time getting the word out, getting people to the meetings. Some of that is geography. The only place we have found for our meetings is the Sun office, which is very inconvenient for many folks. Traffic in Atlanta is very bad and makes it nearly impossible to get to our office for an after-hours meeting. I've been thinking of some ideas and questions and wanted some feedback on how to get things going again: * How successful have people been with meetings in the afternoon rather than the evening? Maybe a 4-5:30 meeting instead of 7-9PM might be better. * What about a conference bridge? If people dial in a few times, they might see the value of in-person visits and come. We did a bridge last time in order to include folks from engineering and a few distant members used it to good advantage? * How do I enlist the enthusiasm of the local SE and service communities to drive interest in the people they deal with? * How can I get this to move to a member-sustained body rather than a Scott-sustained body? * What else am I missing? --SCott -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Wences.Michel at Sun.COM Tue Apr 24 12:46:13 2007 From: Wences.Michel at Sun.COM (Wences.Michel at Sun.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:46:13 -0500 Subject: [ug-discuss] How do you reinvigorate a user group? In-Reply-To: <462E0721.1010102@Sun.Com> References: <462E0721.1010102@Sun.Com> Message-ID: <462E5E85.4000803@Sun.COM> Howdy Scott! comments inline. Scott Dickson wrote On 04/24/07 08:33,: > After about a year and a half, our OSUG in Atlanta is struggling, I > think. We have always had a hard time getting the word out, getting > people to the meetings. Some of that is geography. The only place we > have found for our meetings is the Sun office, which is very > inconvenient for many folks. Traffic in Atlanta is very bad and makes > it nearly impossible to get to our office for an after-hours meeting. > > I've been thinking of some ideas and questions and wanted some > feedback on how to get things going again: > > * How successful have people been with meetings in the afternoon > rather than the evening? Maybe a 4-5:30 meeting instead of > 7-9PM might be better. > I think in Dallas 7-9 works better for us because of traffic, we have only had 3 meetings though. First meeting about 12-15, 2nd 20-25 and our last meeting was about 35. So we are growing interest slowly. As for earlier meetings we actually start a 5 pm with an installfest, 1st month no takers, 2nd month we had 2 show up and this month we had 7 show up to install Solaris on their laptop. > * What about a conference bridge? If people dial in a few times, > they might see the value of in-person visits and come. We did a > bridge last time in order to include folks from engineering and > a few distant members used it to good advantage? > We have not thought about that, a dial-in might be a good way to get an engineering preso done. I am not sure if members would dial-in today, may be something we throw around in the future. > * How do I enlist the enthusiasm of the local SE and service > communities to drive interest in the people they deal with? > Actually I have help from Southern Area SE manager as they were trying to revive the old Sun Users Group so we actually merged the two groups and hold meetings together. We try to have an agenda for 1-3 months in advanced and give out flyers at meetings with topics of the up comming meetings. Try getting SE manager or Service Manager or some manager involved, someone who has resources so that they can rotate amongst their team. For example I host all the meetings and get assistance from rotating member of the SE community to help out. You need to get buy in from the office to help lead this effort (even the Lone Ranger had Tonto :)). > * How can I get this to move to a member-sustained body rather > than a Scott-sustained body? > At some point there needs to be a transition to get the community members involved, so that you can get help to build a board. It is important to share the responsibility of building and maintaining the community. The community need to take on responsibility and we are here to facilitate. Again I am new at this and this is what we would like to do, but weather we can make it happen is yet to be seen, I'll keep my fingers crossed. > * What else am I missing? > Talk to your membership find out what works for them, what does not. Ask them, what do they think, and what direction would they like the community to head in. There has to be community participation other than just attending. I think your just going through a slump. It is like baseball, you get on a hot streak but it does not last forever. So you will go through a slump every know and then. The thing about baseball, is they play I think like 162 games, so it ok to be in a slump for a couple games. Just like in life and in nature everthing is cyclic. I am sure you will be fine, after all it was your community that inspired me to start the DFWOSUG. Thanks! Wences > --SCott > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >ug-discuss mailing list >ug-discuss at opensolaris.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kjelle at kjelle.org Tue Apr 24 12:33:56 2007 From: kjelle at kjelle.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kjell_H=F6gstr=F6m?=) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:33:56 +0200 Subject: [ug-discuss] How do you reinvigorate a user group? In-Reply-To: <462E0721.1010102@Sun.Com> References: <462E0721.1010102@Sun.Com> Message-ID: <462E5BA4.6010002@kjelle.org> Hi Scott! Scott Dickson wrote: > After about a year and a half, our OSUG in Atlanta is struggling, I > think. We have always had a hard time getting the word out, getting > people to the meetings. Some of that is geography. The only place we > have found for our meetings is the Sun office, which is very > inconvenient for many folks. Traffic in Atlanta is very bad and makes > it nearly impossible to get to our office for an after-hours meeting. We tried with the Sun Office in Stockholm and have the same problem as you have. We are located outside of Stockholm. ten minutes walk from the subway end station and many thinks that is too far from central Stockholm. Last time we were able to get a more central meeting location and had the next biggest meeting. > I've been thinking of some ideas and questions and wanted some feedback > on how to get things going again: > > * How successful have people been with meetings in the afternoon > rather than the evening? Maybe a 4-5:30 meeting instead of 7-9PM > might be better. I've done that in Gotheburg and that have worked quite well with attendance in the range of 25-40 people. We usually starts at 15:00 and ends at 17.30 (started so mostly because I want to be able to get a flight home the same night, but I think it works well). We try to have two topics and one of them usually in the next update so people can justify to spend some working time on the meeting. > * What about a conference bridge? If people dial in a few times, > they might see the value of in-person visits and come. We did a > bridge last time in order to include folks from engineering and a > few distant members used it to good advantage? Not tried that, but I think that you need a room with a good telephone system if you are going to use it every time. > * How do I enlist the enthusiasm of the local SE and service > communities to drive interest in the people they deal with? I think the best thing you can do is to talk with them, try to engage them for a presentation. And talk to their managers so people actually can get OpenSolaris in their official tasks. > * How can I get this to move to a member-sustained body rather than > a Scott-sustained body? I'm fortunate to have one of the board members in Europen.se, kind of the Unix user group in Sweden and a USENIX affiliate, being the co founder of the Swedish user group. And now the rest of the board actually have started to take more interest in OpenSolaris. They arranged a Freenix conference last autumn which had one OpenSolaris track. So if you can find a local organization for Unix Users it may be a useful to try to cooperate with them. > * What else am I missing? > > --SCott /Kjell > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ug-discuss mailing list > ug-discuss at opensolaris.org From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 00:13:35 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:13:35 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> The OGB has started the community reorganization discussion: http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-April/000289.html And the merger of the Marketing and User Group Communities is on their list for consideration. We clearly have consensus here to do this based on this thread, but I'm not sure we have any consensus on a name yet. Here are the suggestions I have so far: * Ambassador Community * Advocates Community * Evangelism Community * Evangelization Community * Outreach Community I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates Community. If you like, chime in with your opinion on the name specifically and we'll see if we can get some consensus. Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From Xinfeng.Liu at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 00:50:04 2007 From: Xinfeng.Liu at Sun.COM (Xin-Feng Liu) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:50:04 +0800 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <462F082C.6050507@Sun.COM> I like "Advocates" too. -Xinfeng Jim Grisanzio wrote On 2007?04?25? 15:13,: > The OGB has started the community reorganization discussion: > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-April/000289.html > > And the merger of the Marketing and User Group Communities is on their > list for consideration. We clearly have consensus here to do this based > on this thread, but I'm not sure we have any consensus on a name yet. > > Here are the suggestions I have so far: > > * Ambassador Community > * Advocates Community > * Evangelism Community > * Evangelization Community > * Outreach Community > > I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates Community. > > If you like, chime in with your opinion on the name specifically and > we'll see if we can get some consensus. > > Jim From stief at guug.de Wed Apr 25 00:52:28 2007 From: stief at guug.de (Wolfgang Stief) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:52:28 PDT Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs Message-ID: <28419944.1177487578613.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> Hello Jim! > Here are the suggestions I have so far: > > * Ambassador Community > * Advocates Community > * Evangelism Community > * Evangelization Community > * Outreach Community > like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates > Community. I followed the discussion on osol-mktg so far. I agree with you on 'Advocates Community'. Outreach seems not strong enough for me, whereas Evangelism / Evangelization sounds way too strong and narrow minded to my ears. My personal favorite is Ambassador, but depending on whom somebody talks to, this might bring up confusion with Sun Ambassadors. wolfgang This message posted from opensolaris.org From nenad at cimerman.de Wed Apr 25 02:52:20 2007 From: nenad at cimerman.de (Nenad Cimerman) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:52:20 +0200 Subject: AW: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing& UGs In-Reply-To: <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <000f01c7871f$6a855f50$f002a8c0@cclsrv01> Hi Jim, personally I think 'The OpenSolaris Supporters Community' describes best, what the real fundamental motivation for both communities is. It also sounds very familiar to people surfing the web, looking for helpful information about a product or something. As of 'Advocates', I believe this sounds somehow formal and not as inviting to the average 'web commuter'. But it's still better then any of the other candidates this far. Best Regards, Nenad Cimerman. -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: ug-discuss-bounces at opensolaris.org [mailto:ug-discuss-bounces at opensolaris.org] Im Auftrag von Jim Grisanzio Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. April 2007 09:14 An: ug-discuss at opensolaris.org; opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org Betreff: Re: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing& UGs The OGB has started the community reorganization discussion: http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-April/000289.html And the merger of the Marketing and User Group Communities is on their list for consideration. We clearly have consensus here to do this based on this thread, but I'm not sure we have any consensus on a name yet. Here are the suggestions I have so far: * Ambassador Community * Advocates Community * Evangelism Community * Evangelization Community * Outreach Community I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates Community. If you like, chime in with your opinion on the name specifically and we'll see if we can get some consensus. Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris _______________________________________________ ug-discuss mailing list ug-discuss at opensolaris.org From Tim.Foster at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 05:13:23 2007 From: Tim.Foster at Sun.COM (Tim Foster) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:13:23 +0100 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <1177503203.29129.62.camel@haiiro> On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 16:13 +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > Here are the suggestions I have so far: > > * Ambassador Community > * Advocates Community > * Evangelism Community > * Evangelization Community > * Outreach Community > > I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates Community. > > If you like, chime in with your opinion on the name specifically and > we'll see if we can get some consensus. I still prefer Ambassadors, but understand that it clashes with the Sun community of the same name, so I'll vote for Advocate. cheers, tim -- Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Solaris Engineering Ops http://blogs.sun.com/timf From Joey.Guo at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 05:55:53 2007 From: Joey.Guo at Sun.COM (joey) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:55:53 +0800 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <462F4FD9.3000702@sun.com> Jim Grisanzio wrote: > The OGB has started the community reorganization discussion: > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-April/000289.html > > And the merger of the Marketing and User Group Communities is on their > list for consideration. We clearly have consensus here to do this > based on this thread, but I'm not sure we have any consensus on a name > yet. > > Here are the suggestions I have so far: > > * Ambassador Community > * Advocates Community > * Evangelism Community > * Evangelization Community > * Outreach Community > > I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates Community. I prefer OpenSolaris Advocates Community as well. So far, we have the Campus Ambassador and Solaris Ambassador Programs as well as Solaris Evangelism team in Technology Outreach Group. To use the others may introduce some confusions. Any comments? -- Joey Guo, University Program Manager Sun China Engineering & Research Institute Tel: (86)10-62673245 Mobile: (86)13701115218 http://blogs.sun.com/JoeyGuo http://opentech.org.cn http://eri.prc/wiki/univ From stevel at sun.com Wed Apr 25 08:10:44 2007 From: stevel at sun.com (Stephen Lau) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:10:44 -0700 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <462F6F74.2030201@sun.com> Jim Grisanzio wrote: > The OGB has started the community reorganization discussion: > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-April/000289.html > > And the merger of the Marketing and User Group Communities is on their > list for consideration. We clearly have consensus here to do this based > on this thread, but I'm not sure we have any consensus on a name yet. > > Here are the suggestions I have so far: > > * Ambassador Community > * Advocates Community > * Evangelism Community > * Evangelization Community > * Outreach Community > > I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates Community. > > If you like, chime in with your opinion on the name specifically and > we'll see if we can get some consensus. > > Jim Please also keep in mind the project naming convention discussion that's also happening on ogb-discuss. I'd rather not have communities/projects starting with "OpenSolaris" since it screws up the alphabetised sorting of the list... cheers, steve -- stephen lau // stevel at sun.com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net opensolaris // solaris kernel development From alan.duboff at sun.com Wed Apr 25 12:12:24 2007 From: alan.duboff at sun.com (Alan DuBoff) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > The OGB has started the community reorganization discussion: > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-April/000289.html > > And the merger of the Marketing and User Group Communities is on their list > for consideration. We clearly have consensus here to do this based on this > thread, but I'm not sure we have any consensus on a name yet. > > Here are the suggestions I have so far: > > * Ambassador Community > * Advocates Community > * Evangelism Community > * Evangelization Community > * Outreach Community > > I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates Community. > > If you like, chime in with your opinion on the name specifically and we'll > see if we can get some consensus. Jim, Is this for community people, even if we're from a defunct community? Evidentally I'm involved with a community that failed to respond to repeated inquiries to represent opensolaris, so we're now consider defunct. I'm unclear if our input is even needed. I'm not sure if my user group community is defunct or not, I didn't responsd to any repeated inquiries there either, so it must be...:-/ -- Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 IHV/OEM Group From carton at Ivy.NET Wed Apr 25 13:03:26 2007 From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:03:26 -0400 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: (Alan DuBoff's message of "Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:12:24 -0700 (PDT)") References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: >>>>> "ad" == Alan DuBoff writes: ad> I'm not sure if my user group community is defunct or not, I ad> didn't responsd to any repeated inquiries there either, so it ad> must be...:-/ The list I was on, ug-nycosug at opensolaris.org, just got removed. It might have been nice to send a ``we're removing this list because ______'' mail to the list before deleting it, but no worries, I figured it out. :) I'm involved in several users' groups in the NYC area that work really well, but I think maybe the group needs to be somewhat independent of the vendors it discusses, like NYLUG, NYCBUG, and Unigroup are. Sometimes vendors like IBM or Apple give these groups meeting space, and sometimes Unigroup makes ``field trips'' to Sun, but all those groups run their own mailing lists, web sites, and board elections. Further, I'm completely uncomfortable being labelled an ``OpenSolaris Advocate,'' because, although yes I do tell people why I use Solaris and why I think it's better than Linux and BSD, I also spend a lot of time complaining about the performance of Solaris or the frequent misunderstandings about how much of Solaris is actually Open. I do both. For example, I held an installfest for SXCE and tried to convince all my friends to come, but while we were opening cases to move jumpers for an OpenPROM upgrade, or waiting for DVDs to spin, I talked about what it means to ``pull a Darwin'' and about all the blob drivers creeping into Linux. I expect users' groups to be like cancer support groups or group therapy, for people suffering/enjoying some large complicated device, not for evangelism, not for ``cancer is great!'' or ``you should get married and fight with your wife, too, like me!'' Calling me an ``Advocate'' or an ``Evangelist'' makes me think I'm either a Happy Dog, or I'm collecting a paycheck. so I think maybe these Sun ug's are not what I expected, are something different from NYLUG/NYCBUG/Unigroup. Nor do I want the organizational structure of any users' group whose meetings I attend to be infiltrated by salesmen. This trips a big switch in my head that helps avoid wastes of my time. The users' groups I do attend _do_ often have talks from companies selling something, but they have organizers that help filter sales and marketing folk before they use my attention. Now, the talks I've attended through Unigroup's trips to Sun have certainly not been wastes of time. They've been among the best. But to me this separation seems like it might be important to the legitimacy of the group, and its consequent ability to retain members. Keeping our NYC users' groups outside Sun will also solve the problem we had on ug-nycosug, where we had a mailing list but no actual group to use it. At best, we had Brian Gupta and I discussing the possibility of meeting right before the mailing list was quietly deleted. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alan.coopersmith at sun.com Wed Apr 25 13:09:33 2007 From: alan.coopersmith at sun.com (Alan Coopersmith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:09:33 -0700 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <462FB57D.6040702@sun.com> Alan DuBoff wrote: > Is this for community people, even if we're from a defunct community? > > Evidentally I'm involved with a community that failed to respond to > repeated inquiries to represent opensolaris, so we're now consider > defunct. I'm unclear if our input is even needed. The Device Driver community is not part of the merger under discussion, so why does that matter? > I'm not sure if my user group community is defunct or not, I didn't > responsd to any repeated inquiries there either, so it must be...:-/ The User Group community not only responded, it was a bit over-represented, naming 88 Core Contributors, almost 1/3rd of the the total voting base for the initial elections - Marketing named 6 Core Contributors, so neither one would be considered defunct, though if you wanted to hold a vote of all these people, I expect you'd have a hard time getting a majority of them to even cast ballots. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith at sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From brian.gupta at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 13:42:45 2007 From: brian.gupta at gmail.com (Brian Gupta) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:42:45 PDT Subject: [ug-discuss] Mailing list appears broken. Message-ID: <4925946.1177533795357.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Date: Apr 25, 2007 4:39 PM Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) To: brian.gupta at gmail.com This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently: ug-nycosug at opensolaris.org Technical details of permanent failure: PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 9): 550 : Recipient address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table ----- Original message ----- Received: by 10.101.70.17 with SMTP id x17mr569950ank.1177533564604; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.3.13 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5b5090780704251339x289e97f3vfd09c175a29fed0e at mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:39:24 -0400 From: "Brian Gupta" To: ug-nycosug at opensolaris.org Subject: Any NYers listening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cheers, Brian This message posted from opensolaris.org From jim.grisanzio at sun.com Wed Apr 25 16:33:46 2007 From: jim.grisanzio at sun.com (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:33:46 PDT Subject: [ug-discuss] Re: [osol-mktg] Re: Community Consolidation -- Marketing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <17289920.1177544056381.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > > The OGB has started the community reorganization > discussion: > > > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007 > -April/000289.html > > > > And the merger of the Marketing and User Group > Communities is on their list > > for consideration. We clearly have consensus here > to do this based on this > > thread, but I'm not sure we have any consensus on a > name yet. > > > > Here are the suggestions I have so far: > > > > * Ambassador Community > > * Advocates Community > > * Evangelism Community > > * Evangelization Community > > * Outreach Community > > > > I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates > Community. > > > > If you like, chime in with your opinion on the name > specifically and we'll > > see if we can get some consensus. > > Jim, > > Is this for community people, even if we're from a > defunct community? > > Evidentally I'm involved with a community that failed > to respond to > repeated inquiries to represent opensolaris, so we're > now consider > defunct. I'm unclear if our input is even needed. > > I'm not sure if my user group community is defunct or > not, I didn't > responsd to any repeated inquiries there either, so > it must be...:-/ Hey, Alan. Not sure what you mean. Your group page and list are still there and you are still part of the UG community. Jim This message posted from opensolaris.org From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 17:05:21 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:05:21 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Mailing list appears broken. In-Reply-To: <4925946.1177533795357.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> References: <4925946.1177533795357.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> Message-ID: <462FECC1.7020309@sun.com> We're checking this with the previous list owner. We didn't delete it, though. We'll get it fixed. Thanks for letting us know. Jim Brian Gupta wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Mail Delivery Subsystem > Date: Apr 25, 2007 4:39 PM > Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) > To: brian.gupta at gmail.com > > > This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification > > Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently: > > ug-nycosug at opensolaris.org > > Technical details of permanent failure: > PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 9): 550 : Recipient address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table > > ----- Original message ----- > > Received: by 10.101.70.17 with SMTP id x17mr569950ank.1177533564604; > Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:39:24 -0700 (PDT) > Received: by 10.100.3.13 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:39:24 -0700 (PDT) > Message-ID: <5b5090780704251339x289e97f3vfd09c175a29fed0e at mail.gmail.com> > Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:39:24 -0400 > From: "Brian Gupta" > To: ug-nycosug at opensolaris.org > Subject: Any NYers listening > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Disposition: inline > > Cheers, > Brian > > > This message posted from opensolaris.org > _______________________________________________ > ug-discuss mailing list > ug-discuss at opensolaris.org From alan.duboff at sun.com Wed Apr 25 19:01:46 2007 From: alan.duboff at sun.com (Alan DuBoff) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Miles Nordin wrote: >>>>>> "ad" == Alan DuBoff writes: > > ad> I'm not sure if my user group community is defunct or not, I > ad> didn't responsd to any repeated inquiries there either, so it > ad> must be...:-/ > > The list I was on, ug-nycosug at opensolaris.org, just got removed. It > might have been nice to send a ``we're removing this list because > ______'' mail to the list before deleting it, but no worries, I > figured it out. :) Maybe you didn't respond to a message posted in another group, I've found out that happens. > I'm involved in several users' groups in the NYC area that work really > well, but I think maybe the group needs to be somewhat independent of > the vendors it discusses, like NYLUG, NYCBUG, and Unigroup are. > Sometimes vendors like IBM or Apple give these groups meeting space, > and sometimes Unigroup makes ``field trips'' to Sun, but all those > groups run their own mailing lists, web sites, and board elections. I've been involved in a few user groups myself. Maybe my user group is gone, I'll have to go look and see if we're still in the user group community. Chances are it's gone also, I don't remember responding to any inquiries. > Keeping our NYC users' groups outside Sun will also solve the problem > we had on ug-nycosug, where we had a mailing list but no actual group > to use it. At best, we had Brian Gupta and I discussing the > possibility of meeting right before the mailing list was quietly > deleted. Yeah, we used ot have a group of folks that got together and met for drinks to talk about Solaris, before OpenSolaris existed. A bunch of us would get together and toss cold ones, but it wasn't funded or setup by anyone at Sun. I guess we just didn't get the big picture or something... -- Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 IHV/OEM Group From alan.duboff at sun.com Wed Apr 25 19:06:04 2007 From: alan.duboff at sun.com (Alan DuBoff) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <462FB57D.6040702@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> <462FB57D.6040702@sun.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Alan DuBoff wrote: >> Is this for community people, even if we're from a defunct community? >> >> Evidentally I'm involved with a community that failed to respond to >> repeated inquiries to represent opensolaris, so we're now consider defunct. >> I'm unclear if our input is even needed. > > The Device Driver community is not part of the merger under discussion, > so why does that matter? I would think that SVOSUG was though. >> I'm not sure if my user group community is defunct or not, I didn't >> responsd to any repeated inquiries there either, so it must be...:-/ > > The User Group community not only responded, it was a bit over-represented, > naming 88 Core Contributors, almost 1/3rd of the the total voting base for > the initial elections - Marketing named 6 Core Contributors, so neither one > would be considered defunct, though if you wanted to hold a vote of all > these people, I expect you'd have a hard time getting a majority of them > to even cast ballots. Sure, because groups like SVOSUG have 2 people named, where FROSUG has more than a dozen. I guess they had a lot of +1 replys or something...:-/ Other groups probably have none. -- Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 IHV/OEM Group From alan.coopersmith at sun.com Wed Apr 25 19:10:49 2007 From: alan.coopersmith at sun.com (Alan Coopersmith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:10:49 -0700 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> <462FB57D.6040702@sun.com> Message-ID: <46300A29.9030608@sun.com> Alan DuBoff wrote: > On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > >> Alan DuBoff wrote: >>> Is this for community people, even if we're from a defunct community? >>> >>> Evidentally I'm involved with a community that failed to respond to >>> repeated inquiries to represent opensolaris, so we're now consider >>> defunct. I'm unclear if our input is even needed. >> >> The Device Driver community is not part of the merger under discussion, >> so why does that matter? > > I would think that SVOSUG was though. No - there is just one User Groups Community - not one for each local group. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith at sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From alan.duboff at sun.com Wed Apr 25 19:18:11 2007 From: alan.duboff at sun.com (Alan DuBoff) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <46300A29.9030608@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> <462FB57D.6040702@sun.com> <46300A29.9030608@sun.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: >> I would think that SVOSUG was though. > > No - there is just one User Groups Community - not one for each local > group. Oh, so SVOSUG is not a member of the User Group Community either? Probably a lack of response... -- Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 IHV/OEM Group From alan.coopersmith at sun.com Wed Apr 25 19:34:27 2007 From: alan.coopersmith at sun.com (Alan Coopersmith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:34:27 -0700 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> <462FB57D.6040702@sun.com> <46300A29.9030608@sun.com> Message-ID: <46300FB3.2000605@sun.com> Alan DuBoff wrote: > On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > >>> I would think that SVOSUG was though. >> >> No - there is just one User Groups Community - not one for each local >> group. > > Oh, so SVOSUG is not a member of the User Group Community either? No - you are a member of the community. SVOSUG is one of the user groups. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith at sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 19:35:45 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:35:45 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <46301001.8080006@Sun.COM> Hi ... Miles Nordin wrote On 04/26/07 05:03,: >>>>>>"ad" == Alan DuBoff writes: > > > ad> I'm not sure if my user group community is defunct or not, I > ad> didn't responsd to any repeated inquiries there either, so it > ad> must be...:-/ > > The list I was on, ug-nycosug at opensolaris.org, just got removed. It > might have been nice to send a ``we're removing this list because > ______'' mail to the list before deleting it, but no worries, I > figured it out. :) Still checking on this, but I see from the forums Bill Rushmore pinged the list on 3/24 asking for new leaders or the group should be deleted: http://opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=27020&tstart=0 > I'm involved in several users' groups in the NYC area that work really > well, but I think maybe the group needs to be somewhat independent of > the vendors it discusses, like NYLUG, NYCBUG, and Unigroup are. > Sometimes vendors like IBM or Apple give these groups meeting space, > and sometimes Unigroup makes ``field trips'' to Sun, but all those > groups run their own mailing lists, web sites, and board elections. Some OpenSolaris UGs run their own lists as well. And we are perfectly happy to just list those groups with a link within the UG community. The only thing Sun is providing here is a list and page. Now, I hope to offer the individual UGs project spaces of their own so they would have more flexibility with the site. But if they want to host their own site, that's cool, too. > Further, I'm completely uncomfortable being labelled an ``OpenSolaris > Advocate,'' You wouldn't be labeled anything. The UG /Community/ and the Marketing Community would merge to become the Advocates Community (or whatever the name) which would be bigger, different, and more diverse than the previous two communities were. However, each /individual/ user group would keep its own name and become a project that the Advocates Community would then endorse. Other communities could also endorse them as well. The individual user groups not only keep their independence but they get more options and flexibility and a higher profile in the process. I would suggest that many UG leaders would become active leaders in the new merged Advocates Community, but as a practical matter probably not all. >because, although yes I do tell people why I use Solaris > and why I think it's better than Linux and BSD, I also spend a lot of > time complaining about the performance of Solaris or the frequent > misunderstandings about how much of Solaris is actually Open. I do > both. This is perfectly normal. I see this expressed on opensolaris.org lists all day of every day. >For example, I held an installfest for SXCE and tried to > convince all my friends to come, but while we were opening cases to > move jumpers for an OpenPROM upgrade, or waiting for DVDs to spin, I > talked about what it means to ``pull a Darwin'' and about all the blob > drivers creeping into Linux. > > I expect users' groups to be like cancer support groups or group > therapy, for people suffering/enjoying some large complicated device, > not for evangelism, not for ``cancer is great!'' or ``you should get > married and fight with your wife, too, like me!'' > > Calling me an ``Advocate'' or an ``Evangelist'' makes me think I'm > either a Happy Dog, or I'm collecting a paycheck. so I think maybe > these Sun ug's are not what I expected, are something different from > NYLUG/NYCBUG/Unigroup. There are no "Sun" OpenSolaris User Groups. There are only OpenSolaris User groups. Some are hosted here with a few pages and a list, and a couple have their own sites and use Google and/or Yahoo. I'm I'm sure there are a few we don't even know about. Now, as a practical matter, since the OpenSolaris community is still very young, most of the active and larger groups have a lot of Sun employees who participate and/or lead the groups. But we are starting to see that diversify, and the trend will only increase in the future. > Nor do I want the organizational structure of any users' group whose > meetings I attend to be infiltrated by salesmen. The only organizational structure we currently have in the UG community is a community space on opensolaris.org that hosts a bunch of web pages and presos and lists and one meta-list (ug-discuss) for groups to talk to each other for the leaders to talk to each other. That's it. Everyone's pretty much on their own. Part of what I'm trying to do is carve out some space in the OpenSolaris Community for potentially large numbers of people around the world, many of who are not hard core kernel developers, to participate in the community under the OpenSolaris Constitution. It's that simple. http://opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/governance/ The only way to have a voice in how the community is run is to participate under the system we all just approved. If that's not appealing, that's fine. You have the option of hosting your own website and list for your user group, and I'll just link to you so others in the community can see you. Or, you can host your own infrastructure but also participate on ug-discuss in meta-community issues. This already occurs, actually, and it's a perfectly reasonable model that offers a great deal of flexibility. You only get a voice if you actively participate, though. No one has influence from the outside. Look at what just happened during the OpenSolaris elections. Many months ago, the OpenSolaris Tech Lead, Stephen Hahn, pinged all the community leaders to generate a list of their contributors and core contributors. The UG Community responded and offered a very large list of people from dozens and dozens of UGs around the world. But did they actually vote in the election? Very few. Influence gone. So, we have the numbers here to make a difference, and I argue we can grow /substantially/ larger. But we need to participate. It's our responsibility, actually. >This trips a big > switch in my head that helps avoid wastes of my time. The users' > groups I do attend _do_ often have talks from companies selling > something, but they have organizers that help filter sales and > marketing folk before they use my attention. I'm not aware of Sun sales guys doing sales pitches at UG meetings. But if they are, cool for them because I can only assume that the local group invited them to do so. That's their decision. I sure as heck didn't send them. Remember, the management and implementation decisions of all user groups is 100% local. Besides, if you look at the content that is being presented at most groups, I think you'll see that it's pretty technical: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/os-presentations/ In general, though, I've been a strong advocate of all groups at Sun getting involved in OpenSolaris /as long as/ they do their work from within the community and not market to the community from the outside. Everyone has to earn their way in the OpenSolaris Community and participate openly. > Now, the talks I've attended through Unigroup's trips to Sun have > certainly not been wastes of time. They've been among the best. But > to me this separation seems like it might be important to the > legitimacy of the group, and its consequent ability to retain members. > > Keeping our NYC users' groups outside Sun will also solve the problem > we had on ug-nycosug, where we had a mailing list but no actual group > to use it. At best, we had Brian Gupta and I discussing the > possibility of meeting right before the mailing list was quietly > deleted. I'm perfectly happy for the NYC UG to remain outside Sun, just as the other 50 or so groups are and have been all all along. There's no way for them to be inside Sun, actually, since our budget for this is exactly zero. Some groups choose to take advantage of some web/list hosting that the OpenSolaris community provides as a part of the opensolaris.org infrastructure, and some do their own thing on Google or Yahoo. Either way is fine with us. Regarding the NYC UG list, it was not quietly deleted. Why would you say such a thing? The former leader pinged the list asking for new leaders since he was moving. http://opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=27020&tstart=0 Perhaps the list was deleted as a simple, honest mistake. I'm not sure. I know Bill, he's a great guy, and I'll find out what happened. If the NYC guys want a list, you are more than free to have one. Please send me the names and OpenSolaris IDs of the people you'd like to manage the list. Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 19:40:16 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:40:16 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <46301110.8020002@Sun.COM> Alan DuBoff wrote On 04/26/07 11:01,: > On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Miles Nordin wrote: > >>>>>>> "ad" == Alan DuBoff writes: >> >> >> ad> I'm not sure if my user group community is defunct or not, I >> ad> didn't responsd to any repeated inquiries there either, so it >> ad> must be...:-/ >> >> The list I was on, ug-nycosug at opensolaris.org, just got removed. It >> might have been nice to send a ``we're removing this list because >> ______'' mail to the list before deleting it, but no worries, I >> figured it out. :) > > > Maybe you didn't respond to a message posted in another group, I've > found out that happens. > >> I'm involved in several users' groups in the NYC area that work really >> well, but I think maybe the group needs to be somewhat independent of >> the vendors it discusses, like NYLUG, NYCBUG, and Unigroup are. >> Sometimes vendors like IBM or Apple give these groups meeting space, >> and sometimes Unigroup makes ``field trips'' to Sun, but all those >> groups run their own mailing lists, web sites, and board elections. > > > I've been involved in a few user groups myself. Maybe my user group is > gone, I'll have to go look and see if we're still in the user group > community. Chances are it's gone also, I don't remember responding to > any inquiries. The SVOSUG list is here: http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/admin/ The SVOSUG form is here: http://opensolaris.org/jive/forum.jspa?forumID=61 The SVOSUG page is here: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/svosug/ Not sure what you are talking about, Alan. :) Jim >> Keeping our NYC users' groups outside Sun will also solve the problem >> we had on ug-nycosug, where we had a mailing list but no actual group >> to use it. At best, we had Brian Gupta and I discussing the >> possibility of meeting right before the mailing list was quietly >> deleted. > > > Yeah, we used ot have a group of folks that got together and met for > drinks to talk about Solaris, before OpenSolaris existed. A bunch of us > would get together and toss cold ones, but it wasn't funded or setup by > anyone at Sun. I guess we just didn't get the big picture or something... > > -- > > Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 IHV/OEM Group > _______________________________________________ > ug-discuss mailing list > ug-discuss at opensolaris.org -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From brian.gupta at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 19:54:05 2007 From: brian.gupta at gmail.com (Brian Gupta) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:54:05 PDT Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing Message-ID: <7638326.1177556075317.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> I have heard from Miles. I have heard from Bill. For a number of valid reasons, Bill dropped the UG-NYCSOUG mailing list. (SPAM, Low traffic, and the fact he moved to Philly) He has offered to pass it on to me, or some other interested party. I am probably going to take him up on the offer, if noone else is interested. In either case, I am going to see if we can get something going here in Manhattan. cheers, brian P.S. - Is there a commercial spam filter in front of the lists? This message posted from opensolaris.org From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 19:54:56 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:54:56 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> <462FB57D.6040702@sun.com> Message-ID: <46301480.8040209@Sun.COM> Alan DuBoff wrote On 04/26/07 11:06,: > On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > >> Alan DuBoff wrote: >> >>> Is this for community people, even if we're from a defunct community? >>> >>> Evidentally I'm involved with a community that failed to respond to >>> repeated inquiries to represent opensolaris, so we're now consider >>> defunct. I'm unclear if our input is even needed. >> >> >> The Device Driver community is not part of the merger under discussion, >> so why does that matter? > > > I would think that SVOSUG was though. > >>> I'm not sure if my user group community is defunct or not, I didn't >>> responsd to any repeated inquiries there either, so it must be...:-/ >> >> >> The User Group community not only responded, it was a bit >> over-represented, >> naming 88 Core Contributors, almost 1/3rd of the the total voting base >> for >> the initial elections - Marketing named 6 Core Contributors, so >> neither one >> would be considered defunct, though if you wanted to hold a vote of all >> these people, I expect you'd have a hard time getting a majority of them >> to even cast ballots. > > > Sure, because groups like SVOSUG have 2 people named, where FROSUG has > more than a dozen. I guess they had a lot of +1 replys or something...:-/ > > Other groups probably have none. Regarding the contributor and core contributor issue, I pinged each individual UG list for their names as well as ug-discuss. In fact, the discussion about this on ug-discuss took place over the span of a couple of weeks and generated dozens of mails. It was quite a mess picking through all of it, as I remember. :) Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 19:58:28 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:58:28 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <462FB57D.6040702@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> <462FB57D.6040702@sun.com> Message-ID: <46301554.1040408@Sun.COM> Alan Coopersmith wrote On 04/26/07 05:09,: > Alan DuBoff wrote: > >> Is this for community people, even if we're from a defunct community? >> >> Evidentally I'm involved with a community that failed to respond to >> repeated inquiries to represent opensolaris, so we're now consider >> defunct. I'm unclear if our input is even needed. > > > The Device Driver community is not part of the merger under discussion, > so why does that matter? > >> I'm not sure if my user group community is defunct or not, I didn't >> responsd to any repeated inquiries there either, so it must be...:-/ > > > The User Group community not only responded, it was a bit over-represented, > naming 88 Core Contributors, almost 1/3rd of the the total voting base for > the initial elections - Marketing named 6 Core Contributors, so neither one > would be considered defunct, though if you wanted to hold a vote of all > these people, I expect you'd have a hard time getting a majority of them > to even cast ballots. > I know, we offered a lot of names, but there was very little participation in the actual voting. I probably should have done a better job at promoting the final step. I felt a bit uncomfortable about that since I was also running for OGB at the time. Oh, well, lessons learned. Sorry about that ... Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 20:00:36 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:00:36 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing In-Reply-To: <7638326.1177556075317.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> References: <7638326.1177556075317.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> Message-ID: <463015D4.5080704@Sun.COM> Brian Gupta wrote On 04/26/07 11:54,: > I have heard from Miles. I have heard from Bill. For a number of valid reasons, Bill dropped the UG-NYCSOUG mailing list. (SPAM, Low traffic, and the fact he moved to Philly) > > He has offered to pass it on to me, or some other interested party. I am probably going to take him up on the offer, if noone else is interested. In either case, I am going to see if we can get something going here in Manhattan. > > cheers, > brian > > P.S. - Is there a commercial spam filter in front of the lists? Cool. Check in with Eric Boutilier (cc'd here), and he can get you set up with a list. Sorry about the mix-up. Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 20:10:01 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:10:01 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <462F4FD9.3000702@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> <462F4FD9.3000702@sun.com> Message-ID: <46301809.4000307@Sun.COM> joey wrote On 04/25/07 21:55,: > Jim Grisanzio wrote: > >> The OGB has started the community reorganization discussion: >> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-April/000289.html >> >> And the merger of the Marketing and User Group Communities is on their >> list for consideration. We clearly have consensus here to do this >> based on this thread, but I'm not sure we have any consensus on a name >> yet. >> >> Here are the suggestions I have so far: >> >> * Ambassador Community >> * Advocates Community >> * Evangelism Community >> * Evangelization Community >> * Outreach Community >> >> I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates Community. > > I prefer OpenSolaris Advocates Community as well. So far, we have the > Campus Ambassador and Solaris Ambassador Programs as well as Solaris > Evangelism team in Technology Outreach Group. To use the others may > introduce some confusions. > > Any comments? > Yah, I agree. If we used "Ambassador" we'd be crossing over with some Sun-specific names for most of those you list. Advocates is a good compromise ... Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Wed Apr 25 20:28:06 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:28:06 +0900 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <462F6F74.2030201@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> <462F6F74.2030201@sun.com> Message-ID: <46301C46.4070804@Sun.COM> Stephen Lau wrote On 04/26/07 00:10,: > Please also keep in mind the project naming convention discussion that's > also happening on ogb-discuss. I'd rather not have communities/projects > starting with "OpenSolaris" since it screws up the alphabetised sorting > of the list... Yah, that's fine. I agree. As the formal name it would be "Advocates Community" with the OpenSolaris left out out. Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Thu Apr 26 00:37:14 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:37:14 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Advocates (Advocacy) Community Group Message-ID: <463056AA.50108@Sun.COM> Hey ... Although I see consensus for "Advocates" as a name for the new community group we've been discussing, I know at least a few people have mentioned "Advocacy" as an option. Either way, I think we can move on from the other names and decide between these two. Agree? So ... using "Advocates" for the moment, this is what we have right now: We have consensus to merge the User Groups Community and the Marketing Community into a new community called Advocates. Also, we have consensus to move the user groups to projects, all of which will be endorsed by the Advocates Community. Below is a draft description of the new community. I'm leaving out the "merging" stuff since it's been discussed, it's confusing, we have consensus, and it's easier to just draft something fresh. Advocates Community Group The Advocates Community Group exists to help people around the world get involved in the OpenSolaris Community. We welcome participation from people of all languages and cultures and people with all levels of technical and non-technical skills. Everyone has something to contribute. In here you will find independent user groups, presentations, news, articles, blogs, technical and non-technical content, videos and podcasts, events and conferences, metrics and graphics, swag, badges, buttons, and a variety of promotional projects. Our defining guidelines and values are simple: we embrace the OpenSolaris Principles http://opensolaris.org/os/about/ and we are a community group in good standing under the OpenSolaris Constitution http://opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/governance/ Join us and participate ... Something like that. It's just a suggestion. Advocates Community Leaders: (names TBD) Below is an implementation sequence off the top of my head that I think we'll have to go through. See if it makes sense. Implementation Sequence: (most of which will be done manually) * Brief the OGB about our merger plan and get final approval. * Establish leaders -- merge, add new, delete old. * Merge Marketing and UG Community lists for contributors and core contributors and maintain as one list. * Draft Community Mission Statement. * Create a new community -- Advocates Community -- and migrate content. * Create a new list -- advocates at opensolaris.org -- and merge names. * Start migrating existing user groups to projects and begin the creation of new user groups under a new process based on the OGB's project creation guidelines. * Endorse all user group projects. * Establish URL re-directs for migrated content. * Migrate Marketing & UG Community content to the Advocates community. * Migrate additional content: Articles and Newsletter * Delete old Marketing & UG communities and lists. Missing anything? Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris From carton at Ivy.NET Thu Apr 26 12:30:00 2007 From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:00 -0400 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <46301001.8080006@Sun.COM> (Jim Grisanzio's message of "Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:35:45 +0900") References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> <46301001.8080006@Sun.COM> Message-ID: >>>>> "jg" == Jim Grisanzio writes: jg> You wouldn't be labeled anything. jg> The UG /Community/ and the Marketing Community would merge to jg> become the Advocates Community (or whatever the name) sure, sure. I should stay focused. Our major issue in NYC is finding meetings or getting people to attend them. Unigroup has excellent meetings, but they are formal and relatively infrequent and are sysadmin-focused, rather than LUGs which are more on the boundary between the (better-paid) sysadmins and the (more-respected) developers. I'd like to have meetings that begin with installfests, but haven't yet found others who want this. One problem in NYC is, most of the meeting spaces I've seen are presentation-focused. I live in a Bushwick loft that has comfortable room for about eight people and their desktops. that is, four big couches and some power strips, hubs, and coffee tables. And we have things like DHCP, RARP, TFTP, NFS servers that you need for installfests. You can fit in more geeks than that if they will sit in chairs and step around each other carefully. I think sometimes people don't want to go to Brooklyn, though honestly I'm not much farther from Lower Manhattan than Sun's offices in Midtown. And you can park here for free, believe it or not. Anyway I'm not sure what is my biggest problem---the meeting space's location, the way I advertised it (at Unigroup, on ug-nycosug list, in #solaris on freenode), the way I write my announcement web pages, or a lack of NYC interest in informal Solaris installfest meetings. jg> Regarding the NYC UG list, it was not quietly deleted. Why jg> would you say such a thing? The former leader pinged the list jg> asking for new leaders since he was moving. Honestly deleting the list didn't cause me any problems, because I was only talking to Brian, who I just emailed privately instead. you're right, the word ``quiet'' is a loaded one I should have avoided, although for me it seemed to happen quietly. I responded to his request saying that I'd manage the list, but thought someone should check in Sun's NYC office to see if anyone knew of existing Solaris groups who could provide a better-connected listmanager, which it sounds like that might work out. My concern is that I found only one guy who came to the installfest I held, so I am maybe not good at whatever skill/motivation one needs to attract members. Maybe I should talk in here to people with working groups instead about how you found your first members? I'd like to get something going sooner rather than later. sorry for being dramatic---I overdo the mailing list deal sometimes. Maybe I secretly wish I'd majored in english or theater instead of computer science. jg> Part of what I'm trying to do is carve out some space in the jg> OpenSolaris Community for [people] who are not hard core jg> kernel developers, to participate in the community under the jg> OpenSolaris Constitution. It's that simple. jg> http://opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/governance/ hm, I see. Yes, I was missing the point. sorry for that! Anyway I would be happier if NYC had some members and some activity before we became political. It would be quite shabby to trade on the city's name alone, and I think we can do better. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carton at Ivy.NET Thu Apr 26 12:32:11 2007 From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:32:11 -0400 Subject: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing In-Reply-To: <7638326.1177556075317.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> (Brian Gupta's message of "Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:54:05 PDT") References: <7638326.1177556075317.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> Message-ID: >>>>> "bg" == Brian Gupta writes: bg> I am probably going to take him up on the offer, if noone else bg> is interested. yes, fine by me. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From webmink at sun.com Thu Apr 26 19:28:34 2007 From: webmink at sun.com (Simon Phipps) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:28:34 +0800 Subject: [ug-discuss] Advocates (Advocacy) Community Group In-Reply-To: <463056AA.50108@Sun.COM> References: <463056AA.50108@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <76063B27-7608-4CE1-9838-74621B5E6051@sun.com> On Apr 26, 2007, at 15:37, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > Hey ... > > Although I see consensus for "Advocates" as a name for the new > community group we've been discussing, I know at least a few people > have mentioned "Advocacy" as an option. Either way, I think we can > move on from the other names and decide between these two. Agree? > > So ... using "Advocates" for the moment, this is what we have right > now: While both are good, I prefer "advocacy" since it describes the work product of the community, and that's the way all the other communities are named (after their work product rather than their workers). > > We have consensus to merge the User Groups Community and the > Marketing Community into a new community called Advocates. Also, we > have consensus to move the user groups to projects, all of which > will be endorsed by the Advocates Community. > > Below is a draft description of the new community. I'm leaving out > the "merging" stuff since it's been discussed, it's confusing, we > have consensus, and it's easier to just draft something fresh. > > Advocates Community Group > > The Advocates Community Group exists to help people around the > world get involved in the OpenSolaris Community. We welcome > participation from people of all languages and cultures and people > with all levels of technical and non-technical skills. Everyone has > something to contribute. > > In here you will find independent user groups, presentations, news, > articles, blogs, technical and non-technical content, videos and > podcasts, events and conferences, metrics and graphics, swag, > badges, buttons, and a variety of promotional projects. > > Our defining guidelines and values are simple: we embrace the > OpenSolaris Principles http://opensolaris.org/os/about/ and we are > a community group in good standing under the OpenSolaris > Constitution http://opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/governance/ > > Join us and participate ... > > Something like that. It's just a suggestion. > > Advocates Community Leaders: (names TBD) > > Below is an implementation sequence off the top of my head that I > think we'll have to go through. See if it makes sense. > > Implementation Sequence: (most of which will be done manually) > > * Brief the OGB about our merger plan and get final approval. > * Establish leaders -- merge, add new, delete old. > * Merge Marketing and UG Community lists for contributors and core > contributors and maintain as one list. > * Draft Community Mission Statement. > * Create a new community -- Advocates Community -- and migrate > content. > * Create a new list -- advocates at opensolaris.org -- and merge names. > * Start migrating existing user groups to projects and begin the > creation of new user groups under a new process based on the OGB's > project creation guidelines. > * Endorse all user group projects. > * Establish URL re-directs for migrated content. > * Migrate Marketing & UG Community content to the Advocates community. > * Migrate additional content: Articles and Newsletter > * Delete old Marketing & UG communities and lists. > > > Missing anything? Nothing springs to mind. Great job, Jim. S. From Eric.Boutilier at Sun.COM Thu Apr 26 21:06:41 2007 From: Eric.Boutilier at Sun.COM (Eric Boutilier) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:06:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ug-discuss] Spam handling (Was: Community Consolidation -- Marketing) In-Reply-To: <7638326.1177556075317.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> References: <7638326.1177556075317.JavaMail.Twebapp@oss-app1> Message-ID: Hi. Regarding spam concerns... The spam problem used to be really bad, but was vastly improved in early February. Some interesting background and technical details can be found in website-discuss, thread #2955: http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/website-discuss/2007-February/thread.html#2955 Read the messages posted to that thread by Stephen Hahn, especially the last 3 he posted on 2/10 and 2/11. Note this message too (1 every 4 seconds, yikes): http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/website-discuss/2007-April/003234.html Eric On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Brian Gupta wrote: > I have heard from Miles. I have heard from Bill. For a number of valid reasons, Bill dropped the UG-NYCSOUG mailing list. (SPAM, Low traffic, and the fact he moved to Philly) > > He has offered to pass it on to me, or some other interested party. I am probably going to take him up on the offer, if noone else is interested. In either case, I am going to see if we can get something going here in Manhattan. > > cheers, > brian > > P.S. - Is there a commercial spam filter in front of the lists? From Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM Fri Apr 27 07:22:29 2007 From: Jim.Grisanzio at Sun.COM (Jim Grisanzio) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:22:29 +0900 Subject: [ug-discuss] Advocates (Advocacy) Community Group In-Reply-To: <76063B27-7608-4CE1-9838-74621B5E6051@sun.com> References: <463056AA.50108@Sun.COM> <76063B27-7608-4CE1-9838-74621B5E6051@sun.com> Message-ID: <46320725.7050508@sun.com> Simon Phipps wrote: > On Apr 26, 2007, at 15:37, Jim Grisanzio wrote: > >> Hey ... >> >> Although I see consensus for "Advocates" as a name for the new >> community group we've been discussing, I know at least a few people >> have mentioned "Advocacy" as an option. Either way, I think we can >> move on from the other names and decide between these two. Agree? >> >> So ... using "Advocates" for the moment, this is what we have right now: > > While both are good, I prefer "advocacy" since it describes the work > product of the community, and that's the way all the other communities > are named (after their work product rather than their workers). Works for me. If no one objects, I'll send a note to the OGB in the next day or so and let them know we want to do this. Jim From brian.gupta at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 04:56:47 2007 From: brian.gupta at gmail.com (Brian Gupta) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 04:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs Message-ID: <3260332604.13771494@smtp.gmail.com> I vote for OpenSolaris Advocacy Community. (Advocates is both a noun and a verb) Cheers, Brian -----Original Message----- From: Jim Grisanzio Date: Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Re: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs To: ug-discuss at opensolaris.org, opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org The OGB has started the community reorganization discussion: http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-April/000289.html And the merger of the Marketing and User Group Communities is on their list for consideration. We clearly have consensus here to do this based on this thread, but I'm not sure we have any consensus on a name yet. Here are the suggestions I have so far: * Ambassador Community * Advocates Community * Evangelism Community * Evangelization Community * Outreach Community I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates Community. If you like, chime in with your opinion on the name specifically and we'll see if we can get some consensus. Jim -- Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris _______________________________________________ opensolaris-mktg mailing list opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org From brian.gupta at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 08:27:12 2007 From: brian.gupta at gmail.com (Brian Gupta) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:27:12 -0400 Subject: [osol-mktg] Re: [ug-discuss] Community Consolidation -- Marketing & UGs In-Reply-To: <462F6F74.2030201@sun.com> References: <4611C919.7050608@Sun.COM> <4615FDDD.8080603@sun.com> <4616079B.7060501@Sun.COM> <462EFF9F.1060608@Sun.COM> <462F6F74.2030201@sun.com> Message-ID: <5b5090780704250827x75d172e1u9f9bef9776dc43c@mail.gmail.com> A couple for your list. Addvocacy and Promotion On 4/25/07, Stephen Lau wrote: > > Jim Grisanzio wrote: > > The OGB has started the community reorganization discussion: > > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-April/000289.html > > > > And the merger of the Marketing and User Group Communities is on their > > list for consideration. We clearly have consensus here to do this based > > on this thread, but I'm not sure we have any consensus on a name yet. > > > > Here are the suggestions I have so far: > > > > * Ambassador Community > > * Advocates Community > > * Evangelism Community > > * Evangelization Community > > * Outreach Community > > > > I like Advocates best. The OpenSolaris Advocates Community. > > > > If you like, chime in with your opinion on the name specifically and > > we'll see if we can get some consensus. > > > > Jim > > Please also keep in mind the project naming convention discussion that's > also happening on ogb-discuss. I'd rather not have communities/projects > starting with "OpenSolaris" since it screws up the alphabetised sorting > of the list... > > cheers, > steve > > -- > stephen lau // stevel at sun.com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net > opensolaris // solaris kernel development > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-mktg mailing list > opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: